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Orchestral Tools Metropolis Ark 4 - Elite Orchestral Forces

ProfoundSilence

Senior Member
i share some of these comments with the sales and marketing group at my current employer.

they think it's adorable.
Just imagine the people who paid a premium and showed up to the announcement for HZ strings live - not having any idea WHAT they were getting, let alone if they liked what they were getting.

and HZ strings/the ticket to that event was a lot more expensive than the ark 4 pre-order. That said, I'm still having trouble grasping how people would want the pre-order option rendered 100% worthless. Would they seriously rather the pre-order come as special edition with more articulations or something instead??? something completely unobtainable after the fact?

or just remove pre-order because "IF I DONT WANT IT, NO ONE ELSE CAN HAVE IT" lol
 

Mystic

Senior Member
the pre-order price is for loyalty really.

It's really odd for people to have this weird value perception issue - simply because they did a few sales, but that's why they don't do sales... because people suddenly think "it's not worth it" because it was 50$ cheaper to someone else...

People who bought OT libraries generally felt they were worth it at the price point they were at... and likewise, despite this seeming like somewhat of an enigma - those of us who are willing to pay OT prices don't see an issue. Everyone's line is different I suppose - and for me, there were only a few instruments I really wanted in ark 2, and the sale made the scale tip. I'm not saying that the 50$ can't tip the scales for you, but if your scales tip at 50$ you're probably not the demographic OT is after. There are plenty of developers that make less expensive libraries, and if you're that unsure about Ark 4 - you should just save your money and grab other libraries from other developers.

Like I said, this perspective issue is just silly... those of us who have many OT releases got the library for 50$ cheaper, if you think that giving repeat/loyal customers a discount is a problem - how do you think other people will feel when the intro offer is over and it's 549 euros in febuary?

Ark 4 is a unique flavor, having poked around a bit(still very busy until January personally) and if it's a sound you want, you'll be hard pressed to get it from other libraries. It's from OT, so you know the product will work - its not like they built a new engine that nobody has used... it's capsule, which their entire line(as far as I'm aware) is currently in, and working. Even older stuff like OSR and Orchestral Grands are in some iteration of capsule now. Not sure there's much more information you could possibly need to make an informed decision prior to the pre-order date... there were walkthroughs, demos before the date ended... pdf with articulations were up for a good long while - and it wasn't enough to bite, so why is anyone bothered?

if 50 euros is suddenly a problem, then you weren't interested enough in the library 50 euros ago.

It's moment's like these, that I'm glad I don't sell software. Some bothered there was no loyalty discount, some bothered that actual loyal people got a discount. Some bothered that there was sales at all, which honestly is probably the root of everyone complaining's issue. If there wasn't the last few big sales with OT, not a soul would care about the pre-order price... Heck, less than a year ago - people were paying full price for their libraries, and nobody felt compelled to make a post after paying over 200 euros more than the pre-order prices.
No offense, but this is such a pile of crap argument to make not to mention mildly insulting because some people aren't as willing to throw money into the wind as others.

I have no problem with loyalty discounts if we know what we are buying ahead of time. OT waited until the absolute last minute to even bother posting their walkthroughs, which were okay at best seeing as they skimmed over quite a bit and simply forwent many other things. There were very few demos of the product out by the time the loyalty period was over as well. Both of these things were painfully obviously done on purpose to pressure people into buying because there is simply not a single good excuse as to why they couldn't have prepared it ahead of time.

Almost every other company does the same things when it comes to putting out a product for pre-release: Announce it, bring out demos and a walkthrough. This usually happens at worst within a day or two of each other and certainly BEFORE the product even goes on sale. The lack of this shows willing disregard for their customers. OT isn't new to the game. They know exactly how to prepare a new product. They also have plenty of time to do it and to prep a set of demos to release along side it so either they are doing it on purpose or they've become completely incompetent. Pick one because those are the only two viable options. The only other company that does this is EastWest and they fall into both categories in my books but at least they leave the introductory price up with enough time for reviewers to get their hands on the product and give people the rundown.

I am OT's demographic. I own most of their products. I'm not paying 400 euros for this because I'm simply pissed off at the way they are treating their customers. Maybe some of you are fine with tossing a handful of money at a company and hoping you get something good from it; most of us are not. To say that we are not their target demographic because we're mad at the price jump for being more careful than some just shows yourself to be more foolish with finances than we are. I judge each purchase by how useful I think it will be as should everyone. People who buy into blind loyalty eventually get screwed.
 

NYC Composer

Senior Member
This kind of loyalty is less about exclusivity - and more about investment into the OT ecosystem.
Investment in their “ecosystem”. Ohhhh-kay. Why not “the Orchestral Tools family”?

I respect developers and wish them well, but this sort of stuff is a marketer’s dream.

I think I’m gonna leave this to the cultists, because otherwise I think my head might explode. It could get gnarly.
 

prodigalson

Senior Member
Maybe some of you are fine with tossing a handful of money at a company and hoping you get something good from it; most of us are not.
It’s not the case that there was absolutely zero information about the product out there before the preorder ended. It may not have been enough for you but it’s possible that others may have seen enough from demos and walkthrus to feel that 349e is likely worth it but 549e is maybe not. And user demos seem promising so far
 

Parsifal666

I don't even own a DAW, I'm just a troll.
OK, here's a demo made from only Metropolis Ark 4, using pretty much all the instruments (with a bunch of keyswitching). This should hopefully give you a good idea in about one minute.

I like the video, but does the brass sound pretty fake at times here or is it just me?

I feel like I'm being very picky, so apologies...at least I didn't bring up legato lol!
 

ProfoundSilence

Senior Member
It’s not the case that there was absolutely zero information about the product out there before the preorder ended. It may not have been enough for you but it’s possible that others may have seen enough from demos and walkthrus to feel that 349e is likely worth it but 549e is maybe not. And user demos seem promising so far

This is the part that is strange to me... pre-orders 2 weeks before release and 2 hours before release are the same price... I waited until the last day to pre-order(although I had made my mind up before hand) There is no rush or obligation to order any faster, so I waited until the most information was out - not just walkthroughs, but more demos - showcasing it was the exact flavor I expected the library to deliver, and it was one that I liked.

Personally - I literally open the OT website and left the single demo play nightly as I was getting ready for bed. I'd already digested the individual elements from the demo quite a bit by the time walkthroughs and the new demos hit. All of that was available prior to the pre-release ending. Like I said, it's not like 400$ was going to disappear 2 days before the release... so if I had the money a week in advance - i'd still have it up to release.


As far as people feeling insulted... quite frankly - I don't care. If you are bothered by the fact that someone else with the same information was informed enough to make a decision that you weren't sure of - then there's not much anyone can do for you. If your self worth is tied around being able to chuck 349 euros at a library or not - then forum users aren't responsible for that. I can't afford the new tesla roadster, but I don't feel like less of a person that other people pre-ordered the car before they could drive it/official specs/ratings/ect were out. Nobody is insulting people for not pre-ordering, if anything, I am criticizing the fact that some users have 0 idea what a pre-order is, what purposes it serves, or how and why they are useful. Either that - or they are so self absorbed that they simply don't like the concept, and think others shouldn't have that option because they don't want it.

The bottom line, is that some people had enough information to risk 349 euros - while some others(understandably) were on the fence. It's not exactly a typical product, I imagine many were also feeling the same way about BHTC when it was released...

I'll ask one more time - if there was no pre-order at ALL, and it was just released as 399 intro offer - would people still be upset?
 

Zoot_Rollo

Throbbing Member
This is the part that is strange to me... pre-orders 2 weeks before release and 2 hours before release are the same price... I waited until the last day to pre-order(although I had made my mind up before hand) There is no rush or obligation to order any faster, so I waited until the most information was out - not just walkthroughs, but more demos - showcasing it was the exact flavor I expected the library to deliver, and it was one that I liked.

Personally - I literally open the OT website and left the single demo play nightly as I was getting ready for bed. I'd already digested the individual elements from the demo quite a bit by the time walkthroughs and the new demos hit. All of that was available prior to the pre-release ending. Like I said, it's not like 400$ was going to disappear 2 days before the release... so if I had the money a week in advance - i'd still have it up to release.


As far as people feeling insulted... quite frankly - I don't care. If you are bothered by the fact that someone else with the same information was informed enough to make a decision that you weren't sure of - then there's not much anyone can do for you. If your self worth is tied around being able to chuck 349 euros at a library or not - then forum users aren't responsible for that. I can't afford the new tesla roadster, but I don't feel like less of a person that other people pre-ordered the car before they could drive it/official specs/ratings/ect were out. Nobody is insulting people for not pre-ordering, if anything, I am criticizing the fact that some users have 0 idea what a pre-order is, what purposes it serves, or how and why they are useful. Either that - or they are so self absorbed that they simply don't like the concept, and think others shouldn't have that option because they don't want it.

The bottom line, is that some people had enough information to risk 349 euros - while some others(understandably) were on the fence. It's not exactly a typical product, I imagine many were also feeling the same way about BHTC when it was released...

I'll ask one more time - if there was no pre-order at ALL, and it was just released as 399 intro offer - would people still be upset?

this, and the pissed off posts in the Spitfire Wishlist thread,

is making my coffee extremely enjoyable this lovely Christmas morning.

Merry Christmas!!!
 

jbuhler

Senior Member
I'll ask one more time - if there was no pre-order at ALL, and it was just released as 399 intro offer - would people still be upset?
Upset, I'm not sure, but disappointed. The price point for existing users is up considerably over past offers for this series. OT can do what they want, that's true. It doesn't mean people won't feel disappointed, especially given that OT gave no signal that they were changing the tradition.
 

ProfoundSilence

Senior Member
@ProfoundSilence --
Did you just join VI Control to spam this thread? Enough, we get it.
Whatever you say jack, this thread is relevant to me - because I spent 400$ on it and haven't had time at my home computer to play with it much. Are you surprised I'm watching this thread - for demos like alex's? You still haven't answered my question... Are you legitimately bitter that a pre-order option exists? Or would you rather it just rendered 100% useless because you didn't purchase it during pre-order? No reason to throw stones at me over this.

Jbuhler is atleast making a case that there was a system previously that he preferred. I assume OT stopped offering that discount because they need new buyers - and already pricy libraries even cheaper to somebody else *apparently* bothers some people. These are all things nobody cared about before OT did sales, and now they are being treated like a generic brand.

wasn't it you who said you wouldn't pay more than 50$ for an 8dio library? I could be confusing you for someone else, but regardless - 8dio's products are fine, and capable... but they are treated like generic soda by default. This kind of consumerism is literally going to kill samples. The budget required for orchestral sampling in Teldex/MGM sony/AIR is absolutely insane - and users are now comfortable trying to nickel and dime these companies until they go extinct. That's not a path I want to follow - even if it leaves some users behind. If the perceived value of OT libraries goes down - and people decide to only pay 40% off prices, then I expect the quality will go down, and it'll go from 1 velocity layer with 3 round robins down to 2.
 

whiskers

Perpetual student
Are you legitimately bitter that a pre-order option exists? Or would you rather it just rendered 100% useless because you didn't purchase it during pre-order? No reason to throw stones at me over this.
I don't think that's what he was saying (@Land of Missing Parts correct me if i'm wrong.) I think we were all just disappointed at the fact that there seemed to be little information from the time the preorder started (yes, I know this is not unique to OT). Had the demos and walkthroughs been available prior, we would have had a week to think it over and make a more informed decision.

I'm not salty about the preorder, personally. If someone wants to spend 400$ on reputation alone with minimal info, well, it's their money :) I just wish at the preorder we knew more about the product. (Yes, I'm aware there's still the intro price.)

I personally preordered Time Macro, but at the last minute after all the info was posted. I hate feeling rushed, but I guess that's psychology of sales, right there.

Try not to get too salty and worked up, and have a Merry Christmas! :)
 
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sostenuto

Big NKS Fan !
From Mktg perspective, and with major Library not quite ready for primetime, the Preorder process created enormous exposure and dialogue.
Sure …. some Yin-Yang reaction, but really amazing vehicle to introduce Ark 4.
Understand mixed feelings, but OT Mktg likely feels like very Happy Holidays …. ;)
 

whiskers

Perpetual student
But there WERE demos AND walkthroughs available before release. Some may not have thought them sufficient but they were there and sufficient for others.
I phrased that poorly, but I agree. I meant to say, 'had the demos and walkthroughs been made available prior [to when they were (e.g. earlier)]...

And those people are more comfortable with making decisions with limited information, good on them :). I'm not the most decisive person.

Merry Christmas.
 

ProfoundSilence

Senior Member
I don't think that's what he was saying (@Land of Missing Parts correct me if i'm wrong.) I think we were all just disappointed at the fact that there seemed to be little information from the time the preorder started (yes, I know this is not unique to OT). Had the demos and walkthroughs been available prior, we would have had a week to think it over and make a more informed decision.

I'm not salty about the preorder, personally. If someone wants to spend 400$ on reputation alone with minimal info, well, it's their money :) I just wish at the preorder we knew more about the product. (Yes, I'm aware there's still the intro price.)

I personally preordered Time Macro, but at the last minute after all the info was posted. I hate feeling rushed, but I guess that's psychology of sales, right there.

Try not to get too salty and worked up, and have a Merry Christmas! :)
Having the critique that the info sooner would have been nice is fine... I think most of us would have rather had walkthroughs and demos up sooner - but those with interest(like myself) followed it and held onto my money until the walkthroughs and demos were out. ALL OF THE INFORMATION from demos and the walkthroughs were out before pre-order ended. Some might not want to feel rushed, but it's less than 1 hour of raw playtime to go over the entirety of what is available to see/listen to... And the trailer/demo sounds exactly like the library, as well as the articulation list published very early on.

This was not an uninformed decision problem - it was an ark 3/time macro problem... too many people had no idea what it was even suppose to be, so they were a little hesitant to risk it before more info was out. I had this issue with time macro - because despite liking the demos, I just wasn't sure what it was supposed to be, or if I'd like and use it myself. In this case, I held onto my money - and when the info was released, I decided not to get it. Ark 3 on the other hand, I was really unsure of - and still hadn't made up my mind after pre-order ended so I coughed up an extra 50 euros to take my time with the decision.

With time macro, if I had made the decision to buy it during the intro because it was cheaper, I can almost guarantee I'd be disappointed with my purchase, and wish I'd gotten something else. If the 50 euro difference tips the scales, it's hard to make a case that you wanted it enough in the first place.

Ark 4 on the other hand - has an aesthetic that I like, and extra demos only re-inforced that.

I think the harmonium from ark 2, the quinted from ark 3, BB muted brass exp, would make for a very fun template. even better might be ark 4 + glory days - but that was another library I just was too on the fence about to take the chance(and im glad I didn't, because ark 4 - despite WAYYYYY less content than glory days, has a flavor I want - not just 'kind of like')
 

Mystic

Senior Member
@ProfoundSilence The demos that got released didn't showcase much. I find the user demos far more informative than the two that got released mere days before the preorder. Also, not all of us have the time to sit around on a forum waiting for information to pop up at the last minute like a puppy waiting for it's master at the door. Some of us have jobs that require our attention for more than 4 hours a day.

Whatever though, if it was good enough for you, then bravo. In the future, I hope OT learns from this and that it could certainly have had more money coming in if they had done things properly. In talking to some of the other composers, they are on the same page as myself and aren't happy about how it was handled and thus, we'll either wait or simply not buy it at all. None of these tools are a need. They are simply paints on a pallet. I certainly have no qualms with not buying from a company based on principle because something else will always take it's place. The ball is in their court. heh

I feel like I need some popcorn right now. :)
 

Land of Missing Parts

flibbertigibbet
I don't think that's what he was saying (@Land of Missing Parts correct me if i'm wrong.
I just don't get why Orchestral Tools is trying to get customers to buy before they can see reviews and opinions. What do they have to gain by keeping people in the dark?

I also think it isn't helping them with sales. And it's baffling to see that some people are so keen on advocating for the best interests of Orchestral Tools and against the interests of themselves and their fellow musicians.
 
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ProfoundSilence

Senior Member
@ProfoundSilence The demos that got released didn't showcase much. I find the user demos far more informative than the two that got released mere days before the preorder. Also, not all of us have the time to sit around on a forum waiting for information to pop up at the last minute like a puppy waiting for it's master at the door. Some of us have jobs that require our attention for more than 4 hours a day.

Whatever though, if it was good enough for you, then bravo. In the future, I hope OT learns from this and that it could certainly have had more money coming in if they had done things properly. In talking to some of the other composers, they are on the same page as myself and aren't happy about how it was handled and thus, we'll either wait or simply not buy it at all. None of these tools are a need. They are simply paints on a pallet. I certainly have no qualms with not buying from a company based on principle because something else will always take it's place. The ball is in their court. heh

I feel like I need some popcorn right now. :)
Not sure who that was directed at, considering my participation has been very sparse and concentrated. 24 hours in a day and it only takes one short poop to check OT/the forums. Spare me the drama, if you're on a forum - you're well versed in "wasting time on the internet". If you don't like their business practice - don't support them.


All I'm going to point out here - is that this was coming on the tail of an insane amount of sampling(glory days), so the library would have been doing it's best just to make it to the finish line in working fashion.

Given the tight production schedule - and something totally odd, demo writers would definitely take a little longer to figure out a library before making a demo for it. If it was just another string library - they'd have tons of experience writing for string libraries.

and it was more than 2 demos, and it was more than the night before.

release date was December 19th
demo 1 when the trailer launched.
screencast 1 on dec 13
screencast 2 on dec 14
3 demos on the 17th
2 on the 18th.
then it was released on the 19th.

if you were interested December 6th - you could save money then - and just check a day or two before the actual launch. It's not like OT is a wildcard - it's not like you're buying from a company nobody has heard of, or has any experience with... they have been a very consistent developer, and all the information was there. At this point you're upset that you didn't have demos a whole week before hand to mull over? My advice is this, if you need a week to decide if you want a niche library - and suddenly an extra 50 euros makes it off the table - then you didn't want the library enough... just leave it at that, and sleep easier tonight.

As I've stated, that's how I felt about time macro - and I don't regret not buying it.

ark 3, time macro, and ark 4 are not typical sample libraries... give the demo writers a break. Most of this boils down to the same thing... a handful of events have made people frustrated at something they wouldn't have been 2 months ago. Some might have been mad because they weren't sure if they should buy ark 1 + 2 or wait for 4 - but that just comes down to listening.

The very first demo(the trailer) and the articulation list is quite a lot of information... reading the instrumentation and listening to the piece allows you to pretty handily identify different instruments and articulations in the mix. This requires you actually know what any of these instruments actually sound like - but I assume if you're spending 400$ on a sample library then you probably have ears, and care about these instrument combinations.

I mean, I struggle to think of an instrument that wasn't used in the trailer... sure not every single articulation was used, but are you really going to say you didn't buy it because you didn't hear the Mid string diminuendos? Why do people feel the need to completely blow out of proportion the information they had access to during the preorder? Seems like their production schedule is extremely rushed lately, and nice to have information sooner? sure. But with OT demos, they are exceptionally clear. OT libraries sound exactly like OT demos, and to my knowledge, most demos don't even use much post outside of maybe a bricasti send on the master... I'd love to have had all the demos up on December 6th myself - but you can tell just about all you need to know with the following 3 pieces of information:

OT's consistency historically
The demo
the articulation list.

People who pre-ordered aren't making a blind guess, most of us have plenty of experience with the QA of their products - can listen to a demo, look at an articulation list & relisten to the demo while looking at the articulation list to figure out if we want that aesthetic. Personally, I bought berlin expasions before I even purchased one of their main libraries to get a feel for the company.
 

ProfoundSilence

Senior Member
I also think it isn't helping them with sales.
Neither you nor I know that. This feels like it's blurring the line between the previous ark owner discount and pre-order discount, while silently moving the baseline price up due to inflation. Like offering a loyalty discount that doesn't exclude other OT clients that didn't own any of the Ark series, or newcomers. If they find that the bulk of their sales are pre-orders with previous owners, they are not likely to lose any ark fans over an extra 50$, especially given the nature of the library as almost a "first chairs" for arks they already own. I suspect some grumbled, but ultimately bought it anyways.


[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.8)]
And it's baffling to see that some people are so keen on advocating for the best interests of Orchestral Tools and against the interests of themselves and their fellow musicians, and against the VI Control spirit of helping people make the most informed decisions they can. It just seems lose-lose-lose.
For clients of sample libraries, as well as fans of orchestral tools products - it's in our best interest to be smarter than your average bear. Catering to the lowest bidders is absolutely suicidal. Do you have literally any idea how much it costs to rent one of these spaces, recording engineers - and hire session musicians/an orchestra? Exactly how much do you think it costs to record these libraries???????

Look at products like wivi… they were really ahead of their time, and quite impressive - but development or even interest in those kinds of virtual instruments just about came to a halt - because it was far too difficult and unrewarding.

I bought around 2700$ worth of a CCC from EWQL - and now you could get all of that and more for a monthly subscription. EW has already made their money - instead these up and coming library developers have to sample odd instruments, because there is no reason hiring a budget orchestra, with budget equiptment, and then desperately trying to recoup costs because someone down the street is selling an unfathomably expensive recording, editing, and scripting process to make the EWQL products for next to nothing.


Entire sectors of the market are disappearing, leaving only the biggest competitors able to afford the resources to make a competitive product, and having to sell it as low as they can manage - while still paying royalties/digging themselves out of debt, so someone can piss and moan that they can't save 50 euros on it.

not sure how much it costs to score something in teldex, but for a relatively short piece at MGM, it costs nearly 10 grand. Imagine paying for every note to be sampled, at multiple dynamics, with multiple articulations.

This radical consumerism is going to continue to choke sample libraries, and eventually cause them all to try to make other products that are vastly more profitable.


Mini rant: look at MOBAs and the death of the MMO genre. F2p mmos came out, saturated the market - and destroyed the mmo market, while destroying any chance of decent games to exist because they competed directly with P2W games that lived off "whales" rather than general player happiness. Meanwhile, FPS games, and Mobas - are INSANELY CHEAPER to make, because they require a fraction of the art assets, and make a ton more money.


Now if you want a reasonable MMO gaming experience - goodluck.

So this "consumer first" business only works when you can be sure that the business is thriving. And given the price tag of OT products - I can guarantee you that they suffer from massive amounts of piracy. Be grateful we have companies like cinesamples, spitfire, and Orchestral tools(and almost a full orchestra in trackdown). Spitfire has relied a lot on marketing, sometimes less than savory.

An excellent example was the tragically long period of time that the expansions for SSO existed - giving more microphone positions, and professional mixes... these were 399 EACH SECTION and had 0 demos for years... not a single demo of even the extra mics, and I didn't know a single person who had any of these expansions - so there was no user data either.



So please, have some perspective. [/COLOR]
 
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