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Orchestral Tools Metropolis Ark 4 - Elite Orchestral Forces

jbuhler

Senior Member
Yes, Orchestral Tools would really rather that we buy their products without the benefit of reviews or hearing feedback from pesky VI Control members. It's really pretty off-putting.
It's a bonus for being an early adapter, which I think is fine. But for those who had Arks 1-3, the early adapter price point is €50 higher than it has been in the past. For me, that's more problematic, because for a good portion of those who might have been early adapters it was in essence a fairly large price increase, especially in a market where the general price of VIs has been declining and for a library that doesn't fit neatly within the concept that has defined the Arks. It's just a bit of a weird pricing decision. But it is what it is.
 

ka00

Senior Member
Yes, Orchestral Tools would really rather that we buy their products without the benefit of reviews or hearing feedback from pesky VI Control members. It's really pretty off-putting.
It is very bizarre. There would seem to be no need for it. While their products are usually solid enough that you can take a leap of faith for an extra discount, it unnecessarily puts the onus on their marketing, demos and walkthtroughs to be as effective and extensive as possible. And if any of those things fall short during the pre-release period, it drives away people who would have otherwise purchased at a great price.

If the intro price was the same as pre-release, I literally would have purchased this library immediately after hearing @Alex Niedt ‘s demo.
 

ProfoundSilence

Senior Member
the pre-order price is for loyalty really.

It's really odd for people to have this weird value perception issue - simply because they did a few sales, but that's why they don't do sales... because people suddenly think "it's not worth it" because it was 50$ cheaper to someone else...

People who bought OT libraries generally felt they were worth it at the price point they were at... and likewise, despite this seeming like somewhat of an enigma - those of us who are willing to pay OT prices don't see an issue. Everyone's line is different I suppose - and for me, there were only a few instruments I really wanted in ark 2, and the sale made the scale tip. I'm not saying that the 50$ can't tip the scales for you, but if your scales tip at 50$ you're probably not the demographic OT is after. There are plenty of developers that make less expensive libraries, and if you're that unsure about Ark 4 - you should just save your money and grab other libraries from other developers.

Like I said, this perspective issue is just silly... those of us who have many OT releases got the library for 50$ cheaper, if you think that giving repeat/loyal customers a discount is a problem - how do you think other people will feel when the intro offer is over and it's 549 euros in febuary?

Ark 4 is a unique flavor, having poked around a bit(still very busy until January personally) and if it's a sound you want, you'll be hard pressed to get it from other libraries. It's from OT, so you know the product will work - its not like they built a new engine that nobody has used... it's capsule, which their entire line(as far as I'm aware) is currently in, and working. Even older stuff like OSR and Orchestral Grands are in some iteration of capsule now. Not sure there's much more information you could possibly need to make an informed decision prior to the pre-order date... there were walkthroughs, demos before the date ended... pdf with articulations were up for a good long while - and it wasn't enough to bite, so why is anyone bothered?

if 50 euros is suddenly a problem, then you weren't interested enough in the library 50 euros ago.

It's moment's like these, that I'm glad I don't sell software. Some bothered there was no loyalty discount, some bothered that actual loyal people got a discount. Some bothered that there was sales at all, which honestly is probably the root of everyone complaining's issue. If there wasn't the last few big sales with OT, not a soul would care about the pre-order price... Heck, less than a year ago - people were paying full price for their libraries, and nobody felt compelled to make a post after paying over 200 euros more than the pre-order prices.
 

ProfoundSilence

Senior Member
It is very bizarre. There would seem to be no need for it. While their products are usually solid enough that you can take a leap of faith for an extra discount, it unnecessarily puts the onus on their marketing, demos and walkthtroughs to be as effective and extensive as possible. And if any of those things fall short during the pre-release period, it drives away people who would have otherwise purchased at a great price.

If the intro price was the same as pre-release, I literally would have purchased this library immediately after hearing @Alex Niedt ‘s demo.
honestly, not to sound rude - but this mindset is absolutely inconceivable to me.
Either there is absolutely NO REASON AT ALL to pre-order, or you would rather pre-order not exist at all?

or would you like a useless pre-order to waste the developers time? Pre-orders are nothing new at all, it's not like your money disappears the day before pre-order ends... either you have the money for preorder or don't... So wanting to pay pre-order price after other people have bought and played with the library is just wanting something for nothing. You want other people to risk their $$ to scout it out for you, and then you get the same deal as them?

Maybe I'm missing something - but everytime someone makes this argument, I can't help but feel like there is something I'm missing here - or the person has never pre-ordered anything in their life and doesn't understand why companies use pre-order.


One simple example(ark 4 is an excellent one) they could use pre-orders to gauge consumer interest, and decide how long an intro period needs to be to recoup their investments. It's also useful because the company has likely invested an extremely large amount of capital creating a product and could use the extra cash flow for advertising. Or in the unfortunate event that the library bombed, they could start assessing reasons why - and potentially change their production schedule if they had similar products planned.

Plenty of useful reasons... and pre-ordering at an even lower price is the consumer's reward.
 

ProfoundSilence

Senior Member
I get why a consumer might see value in waiting for reviews and user opinions.
value, like 50 euros? If I was unsure of a library - 50 euros is much better than wasting 349 euros on something I don't want. I specifically didn't buy ark 3 on preorder, but did purchase it during the intro for this reason. Was worth 50 euros to me just to wait and see.

[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.8)]
I don't get why Orchestral Tools sees value--€50 to be exact--in getting customers to buy before they can see reviews and opinions.
[/COLOR]

You don't see why orchestral tools values their most loyal and trusting users? You don't see why orchestral tools values cash flow after a steep investment into a library?
 

sostenuto

Big NKS Fan !
For me, having Ark4 Intro … squarely on top of NI _ Promo was really clumsy. Lots of dinero involved, and having Ark1 to build on, affected some choices. Maybe some would have been upset at having Ark 4 Intro a bit later (like now), but seems it would have been a preferred plan.
 

jbuhler

Senior Member
the pre-order price is for loyalty really.

It's really odd for people to have this weird value perception issue - simply because they did a few sales, but that's why they don't do sales... because people suddenly think "it's not worth it" because it was 50$ cheaper to someone else...

People who bought OT libraries generally felt they were worth it at the price point they were at... and likewise, despite this seeming like somewhat of an enigma - those of us who are willing to pay OT prices don't see an issue. Everyone's line is different I suppose - and for me, there were only a few instruments I really wanted in ark 2, and the sale made the scale tip. I'm not saying that the 50$ can't tip the scales for you, but if your scales tip at 50$ you're probably not the demographic OT is after. There are plenty of developers that make less expensive libraries, and if you're that unsure about Ark 4 - you should just save your money and grab other libraries from other developers.

Like I said, this perspective issue is just silly... those of us who have many OT releases got the library for 50$ cheaper, if you think that giving repeat/loyal customers a discount is a problem - how do you think other people will feel when the intro offer is over and it's 549 euros in febuary?

Ark 4 is a unique flavor, having poked around a bit(still very busy until January personally) and if it's a sound you want, you'll be hard pressed to get it from other libraries. It's from OT, so you know the product will work - its not like they built a new engine that nobody has used... it's capsule, which their entire line(as far as I'm aware) is currently in, and working. Even older stuff like OSR and Orchestral Grands are in some iteration of capsule now. Not sure there's much more information you could possibly need to make an informed decision prior to the pre-order date... there were walkthroughs, demos before the date ended... pdf with articulations were up for a good long while - and it wasn't enough to bite, so why is anyone bothered?

if 50 euros is suddenly a problem, then you weren't interested enough in the library 50 euros ago.

It's moment's like these, that I'm glad I don't sell software. Some bothered there was no loyalty discount, some bothered that actual loyal people got a discount. Some bothered that there was sales at all, which honestly is probably the root of everyone complaining's issue. If there wasn't the last few big sales with OT, not a soul would care about the pre-order price... Heck, less than a year ago - people were paying full price for their libraries, and nobody felt compelled to make a post after paying over 200 euros more than the pre-order prices.
You may be right, but OT is raising intro prices in a declining market for a product that I would argue has less marginal value due to the other Ark products in that market, which they themselves flooded with that NI deal. Ark 3 was offered at 299 to existing customers, Ark 4 is offered at 349 for all customers, which is a significant price increase for existing customers. They may have bet they could get more folks to buy Ark 4 at the intro price who had bought other Arks during the NI sale than they would not get from those who already owned previous Arks and wouldn't purchase at the higher intro price. For all I know, maybe that calculus was correct, but I would love to see their sales figures, which I would bet is considerably below the other Arks (though that might have as much to do with all the crazy sales that happened after BF this year as with their pricing structure and the library's less articulate concept than the other Arks). Of course, OT has the right to do anything they want. Nobody is disputing that. And I certainly am not mad at OT for not offering the same price structure they had for the previous Ark introductions. I just find it odd (and OT does a lot of things I consider odd from a business perspective). But it is what it is, and it is their business, so I go back to evaluating whether the €399 they want for it now is better spent somewhere else.
 

Land of Missing Parts

flibbertigibbet
Out of curiosity, can you think of other sample library devs who have a pre-release price the way OT does it? I can't think of any off the top of my head. The norm is to have an intro price period, then a regular price.
 

NYC Composer

Senior Member
“Loyalty”? Seriously?

These are transactions, perhaps with companies you admire, but....”loyalty”??

Marketing and market research. The desire of people to form subgroups, often encouraged by marketing. Price points. Filling needs or creating a buzz.
These are market determinants. When I hear the word “loyalty” or the words “take my money”, I wonder what friggin’ planet I live on.
 

ProfoundSilence

Senior Member
Out of curiosity, can you think of other sample library devs who have a pre-release price the way OT does it? I can't think of any off the top of my head. The norm is to have an intro price period, then a regular price.
can't remember completely, but wasn't HZ strings a pre-order event?

regardless, there are tons of software companies who do this all the time... it's extremely common with games - and arguably no different than early access pricing. Games that you can't play or watch a walkthrough of, because unlike sample libraries - they are under NDA much of the time.
 

Zoot_Rollo

Throbbing Member
can't remember completely, but wasn't HZ strings a pre-order event?

regardless, there are tons of software companies who do this all the time... it's extremely common with games - and arguably no different than early access pricing. Games that you can't play or watch a walkthrough of, because unlike sample libraries - they are under NDA much of the time.

i share some of these comments with the sales and marketing group at my current employer.

they think it's adorable.
 

ProfoundSilence

Senior Member
“Loyalty”? Seriously?

These are transactions, perhaps with companies you admire, but....”loyalty”??

Marketing and market research. The desire of people to form subgroups, often encouraged by marketing. Price points. Filling needs or creating a buzz.
These are market determinants. When I hear the word “loyalty” or the words “take my money”, I wonder what friggin’ planet I live on.
This kind of loyalty is less about exclusivity - and more about investment into the OT ecosystem. Some fans of a companies products are given the opportunity to blindly invest in what they assume they will like, and are rewarded for it.


At this point, sounds like they should take pre-order away entirely, or people will kick and scream.
 
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