Orchestral Tools Ark 1, 2 & 3 free upgrade

Discussion in 'SAMPLE Talk' started by Jerry Growl, Jan 10, 2019.

  1. OP
    OP
    Jerry Growl

    Jerry Growl Composing Music in the Plastic Dark Ages

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    Thanks for that.

    An alternative would be to render to audio and then quantize the audio (using hitpoints in Cubase e.g.)

    How about Kontakt full version, how do you find the individual 'out of sync' sample there? Any good advise for people who don't nudge samples for a living?

    I'm currently watching this one:



    Seems there's an equal amount of people trying to find ways to get samples sound less tight.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019
  2. ggard17680

    ggard17680 New Member

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    This is not an indictment on Orchestral Tools as a whole. Its just pointing out some obvious flaws in Ark 2 as a product that they released. Within minutes of trying the library I hit a mid strings sustain patch and deemed the releases unplayable as well as the extreme noise indicated by the audio tail of musicians rustling around in their seat after each string sample. Some imperfections can be expected but ones that make a specific instrument in my case the strings not useable is a problem.
     
  3. Brian Nowak

    Brian Nowak Active Member

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    Partly it's an internet thing. Once people get going it can become a dogpile very quickly.

    I don't know who complains about CSS. I mean it's still limited to certain areas because it's a sample library, but all CS stuff is some of the most consistently performing of all the libraries I own.

    Of course these libraries sound great and you can make very good music with all of them. I recently wrote a piece with the Arks, CSS, Berlin WW Revive, and Berlin Percussion. A handful of longtime working professionals were shocked to find out it was all samples.

    No library is "perfect" - they can't possibly do it all, and the more specialized a library is, the less it can do with ease. However, there's specialized, and then there's sloppy work.

    The issues that plague the Arks are mostly a result of just being sloppy, where it's 100% clear QC was rushed, or people just don't care to tighten things up, or they literally did not even look at sections of their own product/update before release.

    As a result of these undisciplined practices, their uses are negatively impacted. Detrimental? In some cases yes (Ark 2 mid string tails were bad enough that I would not use them in most situations). In most cases, not absolutely. But they become limiting or require a deal of editing, coverup work, or general jiggery pokery to hide. This impacts overall composition choices because if left exposed these problems would reveal themselves quite explicitly.

    Samples will never be "perfect" because they're fundamentally different from live performance. But when, as a result of what appears to be laziness or oversight, basic uses become problematic or even impossible, criticism is completely acceptable.

    OT is getting dumped on because they released products with some glaring issues, and then didn't fix some of those glaring issues when they finally did an update years later.
     
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  4. jbuhler

    jbuhler Senior Member

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    For me, it’s not even the flaws themselves; it’s knowing that OT likely won’t fix them and if they do it will be long time in coming. While OT does not generally abandon older products, they do not do regular maintanence in the way Spitfire does, for instance. That said, I like my OT libraries a lot, I very much like working with the sound, I use them all the time, and it is reasonably rare that I encounter a problem. It’s certainly not every time I trot out an OT library that I encounter a problem.
     
  5. jbuhler

    jbuhler Senior Member

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    I only find these tails to be a problem if they are in an exposed situation and I'm trying to force the samples to play back at an overly loud volume for the sample. It's the same with the noise floor, which I don't encounter unless I draw it out with the gain. I find similar things with Tundra. My solution: if I want a louder sample, I use a different library.

    The legato in the low strings and to a lesser degree in the mid strings of Ark 2, on the other hand, does give me trouble, and I'm not sure if (1) I'm doing something wrong in my programming/playing, (2) I have the wrong expectation for what that legato is meant to sound like, or (3) the sustains and the legato transitions are not well matched. But no one else complains about it, so it's likely (1) or (2).
     
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  6. jamwerks

    jamwerks Senior Member

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    I wonder if having to pay NI each time they publish an update would be a reason for them not doing quick fixes? (not sure that's how it works btw)

    Short note start times would be really quick and easy for a skilled editor. Stuff like releases may involve not having the right samples to make it work differently/better.
     
  7. jbuhler

    jbuhler Senior Member

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    Do they? The NI license doesn't change when they issue updates. They do incur bandwidth charges and I'm sure support has a lot more cases to deal with right after an update, so there is that cost as well.

    OT claims that they don't do frequent updates because customers complained about getting them too frequently once upon a time. I find that explanation dubious. I suspect they think the libraries work well enough and fixing the problems that exist is time consuming, expensive, and does not directly yield revenue. So they can spend that money on marginally improving an older product that won't much change sales or on developing new products that will likely yield substantial sales. From a business side, the decision is pretty easy, so long as the quality of the products continue to meet a certain standard.
     
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  8. Land of Missing Parts

    Land of Missing Parts No Time for Honky-Tonk

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    Hogwarts
    Here's what strikes me: They issue a fix for the Ark 2 mid string sustains, but only the multi and not the single. And the fix is missing the two highest notes. That's nuts. (EDIT: Missing only two stretched notes, not real content to be fair.)

    I understand that finding all the bugs before a big release is a bit of a needle in a haystack problem. But when you issue a fix, it's a narrow set of things to focus on. How did they manage to goof that up?

    If they want to issue infrequent fixes, that would give them more reason to pay attention to details.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019
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  9. jbuhler

    jbuhler Senior Member

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    I'm not sure what the issue you are having here is. The additional notes can be added to the multi by adjusting the notes in the highlighted oval. Everything above G4 is a stretched sample in any case.


    Ark2.jpg
     
  10. Land of Missing Parts

    Land of Missing Parts No Time for Honky-Tonk

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    Hogwarts
    Ah, thanks for pointing this out. You're right. The multi is missing the two stretched notes and not any real content.

    So these complaints both have easy workarounds. In my opinion they still demonstrate sloppiness from Orchestral Tools, but yes they are workable.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019
  11. jbuhler

    jbuhler Senior Member

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    I'm not sure why the multi has a different upper range from the individual patches. I don't remember whether Ark 2 previously had a version of Capsule that allowed you to easily adjust the range. (I know at least one of the Arks did not.) But given that access to the range is now given on the front page of the GUI, I'm not bothered by this inconsistency.

    Still, I do think it seems likely that they had different people working on the multi than the individual patches, and that they were not coordinating their work. That does seem like a problem, and the difference between the release sample on the multi and the individual patch on that sustain is the kind of inconsistency that could lead to real headaches for someone using the library. (And even though I use primarily the multis, I often load the sustains separately because in the multi at least one is coupled to legato.)
     
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  12. Brian Nowak

    Brian Nowak Active Member

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    Well, the problem of legato is very easily overcome by using the sustain pedal, which activates poly mode in the multi on legato patches. But yes, I have friends that don't use multis and they're a little more than vexed by the fact that the fix doesn't function for their workflow.

    And while yes, @jbuhler, at appropriate volumes the noise floor in Ark 2 really isn't an issue. It's meant to be quiet. It's not meant to be as loud as ff libraries at its loudest. On the advice of Whitewasteland I bypass or very much turn down the stereo imager in the edit mode - all it does is boost various instruments by 10-11 db. The lack of tail in the mid strings was stark enough that I could always tell it was happening. It was clear they edited the samples poorly and I just didn't use them after that point.

    And yes, while I very much like my OT products and use them every day that I write, my biggest problem with these issues is that there really is no "good" reason for them to exist. And yes, the fact that there is very likely no way they will be addressed, or if they are it will be years before they are addressed, is a major drawback.
     
  13. MChangoM

    MChangoM Member

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    Orchestral String Runs and Sphere also received the same maintenance update.
     
  14. ChrisSiuMusic

    ChrisSiuMusic Senior Member

  15. JonSolo

    JonSolo Not Han's Brother

    OSR and Sphere were already updated if purchased via the NI sale correct?

    And yes, I just received updates for both Inspire and Inspire 2.
     
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  16. MartinH.

    MartinH. Senior Member

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    I'm disappointed that we didn't at least get a bullshit corporate answer a la "Thank you for your feedback, we value our customer's input and always strive to bla bla bla... no ETA for a fix".
    Maybe they're all tangled up in the upcoming announcement event, I'll check back here in a month or so.
     
  17. Heinigoldstein

    Heinigoldstein Active Member

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    Mmh, do I miss something here or is it just me that did not get any update notification for ARK 2+3 ?
     
  18. bfreepro

    bfreepro Infinite Musical Possibilites

    Yeah I got no reply whatsoever.
     
  19. Same here. No reply at all
     
  20. bfreepro

    bfreepro Infinite Musical Possibilites

    UPDATE:
    Tobias has replied to my support email, apologized for the delay in response time, and among other things, has said:
    “I fully understand your criticism and after diving into the patches, there are indeed a few RRs where the attacks can be tightened. I have set that on our todo list.”

    So even if it doesn’t get fixed, I appreciate the efforts and want it to be known I did get a lengthy and courteous reply from support about the issues. This definitely helps to ease the frustration and while I still am quite disappointed with certain aspects of this library, at least we know they’ve recognized it as being a problem instead of saying nothing is wrong. I’d much rather be disappointed with one product than be disappointed with the support team of an entire company!
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2019

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