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Orange Tree Samples Evolution Archtop: MIDI Examples?

Suntower

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Just purchased the above lib. So far I am UNDERWHELMED. There are no included MIDI examples and no docs beyond just describing the controls. I am a trained guitarist so I -know- how to 'play' idiomatically, but just one example: no matter what I've tried playing a straight two octave major scale sounds about as realistic as a home organ harpsichord patch.

Anyone got any MIDI files or other insights on how to obtain some semblance of realism?

TIA,

---JC

PS: Yeah I have a snarky tone... this is one of my HUGE peeves about sample lib devs. They all do these elaborate videos and you buy the thing and then have -no- idea how to obtain similar results. And since there are no refunds...
 
...sample lib devs. They all do these elaborate videos and you buy the thing and then have -no- idea how to obtain similar results.

It is a developer's job to teach you how their instruments work — how to hammer on, pull off, slide, play legato, trill, palm mute, etc. It is not their obligation to teach you when to use those articulations, nor how to compose with MIDI. It's your responsibility as a musician to develop and apply those skills.

It's nice when developers offer MIDI files for teaching purposes, but it shouldn't be expected.

You're in the right place, though. VI-Control is a wonderful resource for learning MIDI composition skills from fellow musicians. I seem to remember a thread from about six months ago regarding getting more realism out of guitar VIs. I'll see if I can dig that one up and post a link.
 
This is the thread I was thinking of, going back to July:


It's not an instructional kind of thread, but toward the last few pages of it, you might find some useful information.
 
Hey Suntower-I like Archtop a lot. I just sent you a PM, cheers.

Thanks. That's pretty good. Is there any 'trick' to playing linear lines that sound realistic? There doesn't seem to be -any- 'forgiveness'.

What I mean is that some libs (like Joshua Bell violin) just sound -great- right out of the box. You start playing scales, arps and they somehow -work-. It seems to 'predict' when you want a more staccato or more fluid line.

This thing sounds like a total harpsichord unless I am excruciatingly careful in my playing of every frickin' note.

Some libs (like Scarbee bass I seem to recall?) use the sustain pedal to smooth transitions between notes.

Thoughts?
 
well, the “extra pick” and “variation” knobs in the “engine” menu are worth messing with. Generally though, I use the tone control to tame it a little, I use grace notes of a half step that are mono legato and that helps, I arpeggiate chords very slightly for realism. I bought it for a jazzy feel and it works well for me.

sustain pedal to Portamento means notes go into mono mode while it’s held down.

Also, using the mute key switch here and there is helpful.
 
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I could not disagree more. Any decent lib is a complex piece of software. And -all- decent softwares demand good tutorials. You make it sound like asking that is some form of 'laziness'. It's not. It's to find out how to exploit the possible. My job is to -compose-. The devs job is to make it as easy as possible for me to do that.

I'll go further... I think one reason there is soooo much bad MIDI in the world is because so many people get these libs, with no proper docs, and fanny about in the dark not realising how they can get the most out of the product.


It is a developer's job to teach you how their instruments work — how to hammer on, pull off, slide, play legato, trill, palm mute, etc. It is not their obligation to teach you when to use those articulations...


...It's nice when developers offer MIDI files for teaching purposes, but it shouldn't be expected.
 
And -all- decent softwares demand good tutorials.

I agree that when it comes to in-depth VI libraries, walkthrough videos and instruction manuals are a must. But I don't think it's a developer's obligation to teach you how guitarists play in order for you to know when apply articulations and when to edit MIDI controller data. That's up to you, the musician.

An example:

I create polka accordion libraries. They're simple enough that videos are not required to learn how to use them, however, a newbie MIDI composer who buys my accordion is not going to get their tracks to sound like mine. Why? Because I've been an accordion player all my life and I know how to use MIDI volume data to get realistic dynamics. Even though musicians are using the same exact library I created my tracks with, am I obligated to put out a instructional video on accordion dynamics and MIDI CC data editing so that they can make their tracks sound more like mine?

I'll go further... I think one reason there is soooo much bad MIDI in the world is because so many people get these libs, with no proper docs, and fanny about in the dark not realising how they can get the most out of the product.

I respect your opinion, but disagree. As long as a developer shows me how to access all the articulations and features their library offers, it's entirely my responsibility to learn why and when I should apply them to get the kind of performance I'm after.

If other musicians are creating killer guitar tracks with Orange Tree guitars, and doing it without the tutorials you seek, then a lack of tutorials is not the problem. Some MIDI music creators are better than others. It's as simple as that. It's up to each musician to advance their skills in the virtual world just like they would in the real world, using every resource available and practicing what they learn.

I recently released an EP that makes generous use of Orange Tree guitars. My "tutorial" was 6 1/2 years of working extensively with virtual instruments, learning how to use articulations, using and editing MIDI controller data, listening carefully to real guitar players, watching videos, assimilating information from this forum and other sources, experimenting, failing, and (hopefully) succeeding.

Buying a virtual instrument library is like buying a watercolor paint kit from and arts & crafts store. They'll show you how to set up the easel, canvas, palette, and everything else you need to get started painting... but it's up to you to learn how to paint. :)
 
Just purchased the above lib. So far I am UNDERWHELMED. There are no included MIDI examples and no docs beyond just describing the controls. I am a trained guitarist so I -know- how to 'play' idiomatically, but just one example: no matter what I've tried playing a straight two octave major scale sounds about as realistic as a home organ harpsichord patch.

Anyone got any MIDI files or other insights on how to obtain some semblance of realism?

TIA,

---JC

PS: Yeah I have a snarky tone... this is one of my HUGE peeves about sample lib devs. They all do these elaborate videos and you buy the thing and then have -no- idea how to obtain similar results. And since there are no refunds...

Have to disagree... :)
 
Some amazing demos 'sold me' on the Archtop when it first came out, and the update to the instrument just made the library even better now. But you definitely need to spend time learning how to use it. Also, combining it with some amp sims or whatever can completely alter the sound so try that as well. It's extremely versatile and playable too, so I'm sure if you give it a chance and do your part you will eventually have no regrets and will understand why so many people like it.
 
Agreed, Frank.

Btw, even though my main interest in Archtop is using it for mellow jazz, I got a decent garage rock sound out of it by just the included amp sims.
 
That's an extremely nice piece. Well done.

1. Would you be kind enough to post (or PM me) with the MIDI? That's the purpose of my post, after all.

2. Perhaps 'Caveat Emptor', but my complaint was quite specific: I can't get a realistic basic major scale. All the demos I've heard, no matter how wonderful, really don't do 'lines'. They do little mordents, arpeggios, etc. but not do-re-mi-fa-so... And perhaps that is just an inherent limitation of the lib I did not think to wonder about. Hopefully not! :)

TIA,

---JC


Have to disagree... :)
 
Some amazing demos 'sold me' on the Archtop when it first came out, and the update to the instrument just made the library even better now. But you definitely need to spend time learning how to use it. Also, combining it with some amp sims or whatever can completely alter the sound so try that as well. It's extremely versatile and playable too, so I'm sure if you give it a chance and do your part you will eventually have no regrets and will understand why so many people like it.

I certainly hope so. If you have any good example MIDI I would certainly appreciate it.

Best,

---JC
 
A few tips for realism on the Evolution guitars:

Keep an eye on which strings are being used to play each note, and set a hand position you like and/or get used to using the force-string keyswitches at the bottom of the keyboard to control notes individually. I tend to do both.

Vary your velocity a lot, de-emphasizing notes is just as important as emphasizing them. Also, adding some compression lets you utilize more of the velocity range while still keeping your levels nice and consistent.

Adjusting your notes to release just slightly early, so you get a more audible release noise in there before the next note hits.

I've posted other tips on the Evolution guitars elsewhere on this forum, but these seem the most applicable to what you're specifically wanting to do.
 
In my copy of Orange Tree Jazz Archtop (and every other OTS Evolution library) is a folder called "Demo Song" which contains Midi files and MP3 files of song demos. Also included are the Snapshot presets.
The 3 songs included are "Dollars to Donuts", "Red Coast", and "Spray on Cheese", which are the same as the audio demo on OTS's website.
 
In my copy of Orange Tree Jazz Archtop (and every other OTS Evolution library) is a folder called "Demo Song" which contains Midi files and MP3 files of song demos. Also included are the Snapshot presets.
The 3 songs included are "Dollars to Donuts", "Red Coast", and "Spray on Cheese", which are the same as the audio demo on OTS's website.
Not mine. Thanks. I will contact them.
 
Just purchased the above lib. So far I am UNDERWHELMED. There are no included MIDI examples and no docs beyond just describing the controls. I am a trained guitarist so I -know- how to 'play' idiomatically, but just one example: no matter what I've tried playing a straight two octave major scale sounds about as realistic as a home organ harpsichord patch.

Anyone got any MIDI files or other insights on how to obtain some semblance of realism?

TIA,

---JC

PS: Yeah I have a snarky tone... this is one of my HUGE peeves about sample lib devs. They all do these elaborate videos and you buy the thing and then have -no- idea how to obtain similar results. And since there are no refunds...

I can totally understand you, I have often had the same feelings after buying a library. Making a convincing performance of a non-keyboard instrument on a keyboard ist just difficult and usually takes a lot of programming. Needless to say, a huge amount of work goes into manufacturers demos, and they try to only show you the best parts of the instrument and hide the weaknesses and shortcomings.
Regarding out of the box sound, some libraries are better than others here. I really like AmpleSound libraries, they tend to sound really good by just noodling on the keyboard. But of course you can always get better results by tedious and painful programming. This is just part of the MIDI world composer job, unfortunately.

@Polkasound good thing you mentioned your libraries in this thread. I went over to your shop and instantly bought a few. Very nice and characterful recordings!!
 
But of course you can always get better results by tedious and painful programming. This is just part of the MIDI world composer job, unfortunately.

This is such a key point to make. Most of my albums take 300-400 hours to produce, and a lot of that time is spent tediously editing VI tracks on literally a note-by-note basis... velocity, length, volume and expression, pitch bend data, other CC data, etc. I use every scrap of knowledge I have to get the VI to sound like what I have in my head. (My expertise has its limits though, so I'm sure some of the methods I use are more convoluted than they need to be!)

Needless to say, a huge amount of work goes into manufacturers demos,

Absolutely. I remember a thread from a couple years ago about Garritan Jazz & Big Band. Someone who had the library couldn't get their solo instruments to sound anything like what they heard the demos. Since Garritan JBB is not known for being a deeply-sampled library, anyone who uses it is going to have to rely on using MIDI CCs, primarily volume and pitch bending, to the max. So I'm sure the demos were made by musicians who know how to use MIDI CCs very effectively.

This is how a good VI library demo is created. They're created by skilled musicians who squeeze everything out of the library, using the library's own features combined with MIDI CC editing (and good mixing) to show the library in the best light possible. Some people think they ought to be able to load up a patch and sound just like the demo, but that is rarely the case. Demos typically show the pinnacle of what one can achieve with additional editing, processing, mixing, etc.

@ProtectedRights , thank you for your purchase. I hope you enjoy the instruments!
 
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