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Now that Trump is an unindicted co-conspirator....

creativeforge

Barefoot Heart Music
Ok, just to be clear then, there is nothing inaccurate in the article. Good to know.
Reading the article, Trump supporters should not party all night right now. They should wait for the report, and consider the super-powers of prosecutors and lawyers to turn an impropriety into an indictment. Let alone clear crimes. It's not over. It could get worse.

Was Mueller's probe a process of discovery that could be used by Trump's opponents. Schumer subtly inserted the terms "and documents" in his prudent first comment/reaction. With these guys, every word matters.

This being said, Ted Koppel seems to believe the NYT and WaPo have it in for Trump and have lost a lot of legitimacy.

As a personal note, when the media crowns a king, their content has a much higher risk of being weaponized News. And having a weaponized media serving power, is a step over into fascism territory, like it or not. What could go wrong?
 
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TheNorseman

Active Member
Reading the article, Trump supporters should not party all night right now. They should wait for the report, and consider the super-powers of prosecutors and lawyers to turn an impropriety into an indictment. Let alone clear crimes. It's not over. It could get worse.

Was Mueller's probe a process of discovery that could be used by Trump's opponents. Schumer subtly inserted the terms "and documents" in his prudent first comment/reaction. With these guys, every word matters.

This being said, Ted Koppel seems to believe the NYT and WaPo have it in for Trump and have lost a lot of legitimacy.

As a personal note, when the media crowns a king, their content has a much higher risk of being weaponized News. And having a weaponized media serving power, is a step over into fascism territory, like it or not. What could go wrong?
Bro, if you thought there was Russian collusion two years ago, you were delusional . If you still today think there was Russian collusion, you are twice as delusional. Put the fake news and fake promises away and face the reality.

The reality is this, the Mueller report is a dud. This thing is about to drop and there will be NOTHING. Guaranteed. There was never anything there. It was a pathetic way for losers to blame someone else for their misfortunes.

I don't fault you guys for being gullible, you just put way too much faith into group-think and confirmation biases. Put away your new York times and eat your vegetables.
 
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creativeforge

Barefoot Heart Music
Bro, if you thought there was Russian collusion two years ago, you were delusional . If you still today think there was Russian collusion, you are twice as delusional. Put the fake news and fake promises away and face the reality.

The reality is this, the Mueller report is a dud. This thing is about to drop and there will be NOTHING. Guaranteed. There was never anything there. It was a pathetic way for losers to blame someone else for their misfortunes.

I don't fault you guys for being gullible, you just put way too much faith into group-think and confirmation biases. Put away your new York times and eat your vegetables.
Uh... wrong target. I can't know for sure what the report says until what can be legally and safely published, is published. It seems to me so far, and from the "no further indictments" that the case is closed.

BUT - there is a ton of material that has been gathered for 2 years, and the Democrats will want to put their hands on it, for derivative work. That's my speculation.

There is already talk to have Mueller appear before Congress to be questioned. As in - "Yeah we really don't trust you now because your conclusions don't support our expectations." And then there's Barr. So like I said, too early to celebrate, something bigger could be afoot, me thinks.
 
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NYC Composer

Senior Member
Regardless of what’s actually in the report, I believe Mueller will have conducted as fair and honest an investigation as possible. If he didn’t find evidence of collusion, I’ll take him at his word-not about whether there was or wasn’t but that he didn’t find any in his investigation. (He’s been a Republican for a long time, btw, which SHOULD exonerate from from bias, but of course not if he came out with something the cult disagreed with.)

Of course, I’m one of those liberal snowflakes. I wonder how my friends on the right would take it if he came out and said “I’ve discovered collusion.” Let’s see:

1. (The perennial fave) “FAKE NEWS!!”
2. “MUELLER’S IN THE TANK FOR DEMS”
3. “DEEP STATE”
4. “WITCH HUNT”
5. “LOCK HIM UP”

Etc etc.
 

douggibson

Active Member
Good job. I'll need some time to go over all of this. I appreciate the sources. I will stand corrected on a few things I'm sure. It helps to see where you're coming from.
Nice job on a civil reply. I respect that. I was expecting both middle fingers pointing towards me.
So .....kudos to you for your civil reply.

I too don't want to spend my time writing out online political debates. Most likely I'll bow at out soon.
(Just other things to do in life)

As for the childish jab at the end, it was totally unnecessary,
I would like to offer you my apologies. It's not from my "higher-self" (perhaps I should smoke pot before reading posts in here)

Additionally, I am sure it communicates the wrong message. While yes, I do consider myself a progressive and a liberal, I really am not out to convince anyone who is a Trump supporter otherwise.
Both my parents voted for Trump. We speak every week and have a great relationship.

I'm also from a very conservative part of the country, so most of my childhood friends we libertarian.
FWIW: Barry Goldwater's grandson was in the same grade school I went to and was two years below me. Meghan McCain went to the girls high school of the same school I did, and if this name means anything to you, Charles Keating's house was about 1.5 miles away from my home when growing up.

The real thing that bugs me is we are so "post Fact" now. Really, I do think I am pretty good at working with people of different ideologies, but in the last 10 years it's literally like talking to people on other planets.

But my conclusion continues to be (FOCUS NOW): waiting for the report.
Respectfully - for what it is worth- did not come across like that at all in your first post. (I am bolding the line below that created a different impression for me. I applaud anyone who takes a "let the evidence lead the way" pov. It's not about "winning" but having integrity in our society.

but on this - many talking heads embarrassed to call a spade a shovel, trying to shift to something else because there is no case.
I would advise if you want to convey the position of "waiting for the report" don't speculate, or come off as 100% certain. Why not wait for the report ?

Seriously messed up wet dream gone bad.
You are 100% free to have your opinions and voice them.
It's just when I read a line like this and then "Hey, I have no confirmation bias"......you are shooting yourself in the foot IMO.

Two years wasted at not working for what they got elected for.
That is just 100% factually wrong. Robert Mueller was never elected. He was appointed.

_____________________________________________________________________________

Let me just give my opinions FWIW:

  • Personally I would like the people, and the 2020 election to determine if Trump stays in office.
I think it would be healthy for the country and I worry about having 40% of the country feeling it was stolen, or rigged etc. I don't believe in the "deep state", and if the FBI was to go up to the White House and put Trump in handcuffs...... I think that would be some really tense times, which personally I would much rather let the elections decide.

  • I think Mueller is 100% a law man, and does everything by the book. He is as close to "objective" we are going to find.
I will 100% accept the findings of his report. If he says there is no direct evidence linking Trump personally, I say let's move on. Wether I agree or not, I would 100% accept what he concludes.

And it doesn't take a genius to think about all that has gone wrong for years with Clinton. That she wasn't indicted doesn't mean that nothing wrong was done. As in Trump's case. The same applies to Clinton. And OJ. Etc.
I agree with you. I am no fan of the Clintons. Everywhere they go scandal is sure to follow.
Trump too.
  • Russia - not collusion - is the biggest issue IMO. The special counsel has indicted and found ton's of evidence of Russian inference in our elections. How could that NOT be a big deal.
I view conservative and liberalism as philosophical approaches to policy.

To say it another way, unless that person is making policy and in an elected position, then people are just people. It's not an sign for one's identity. We spend way too much energy labelling ordinary people and pretending they represent something.


I leave with an analogy:

Politics is a dirty sport, and both sides fight hard and try and get away with what they can. That's the game.

But when things get out of hand, you get what Jimmy argues, and that becomes the games is rigged. It goes to the very heart and soul of a democracy IMO.

I don't know if you follow football (gridiron) at all. This game below, really makes one wonder if the fix is in for NFL games. LA is clearly a larger market for TV. Would they have motivation for doing so ?

I don't know. I have no proof. Regardless, yes you have to accept what the officials say and move on. However it also is very unhealthy when the whole integrity of the game seems to come into question. It was clearly a blown call.

 

chimuelo

Star Of Stage & Screen
This tax payer funded smear campaign is a huge success.
The winner is Putin.

He slapped President Obama’s crew around for 8 years, then approved the Mueller Dossier for Hillary, and used her to divide Americans.
He ruined American Mainstream Media too. There’s your winner.

The loser, not really us, but take a good look at Hillary.
Ask yourself how would she have handled being blackmailed.

The media is history, they’re only mission now is economic survival.
They had the resources to really look at who funded the Mueller Dossier, and bring out the truth. Instead, they mislead Americans and divided them far better than Putin ever dreamed.

This should be part of a CIA Training program in the future, like the Batle of Easting.

I’m glad that the “prosecution” in New York wont bad headed by Eric Schneiderman.
Imagine the dirt Putin had on that perverted sexual freakbag. He makes Weiner look like a Missionary.
 

erica-grace

Senior Member
No collusion, no conspiracy, so says Mueller. Not by any US person, including anyone in the Trump campaign. Taken directly from the report.

On the matter of obstruction, the report does not incriminate the Pres. nor does it exonerate him. Mueller was unable to come to a conclusion as to whether or not obstruction occurred, but Barr says that there is no evidence that any such crimes occurred.
 

creativeforge

Barefoot Heart Music
  • Russia - not collusion - is the biggest issue IMO. The special counsel has indicted and found ton's of evidence of Russian inference in our elections. How could that NOT be a big deal.
Thank you Doug, much appreciate your attitude It's all good. :)

One thing about my statement: "but on this - many talking heads embarrassed to call a spade a shovel, trying to shift to something else because there is no case."

I was referring to proving strategic collusion between Trump (himself or team) and Putin (or "Russia") to rig the elections. Because that was the focus of the Mueller investigation.

I agree with you on everything you wrote, actually. I don't follow football, but it's clear something really fishy happened, the players know it, the coaches know it, the crowd knows it and millions watching on TV certainly do too. But the referees decided the outcome and people go back to their lives. I'm sure there will be follow-ups, postmortems, debriefing, and possibly decisions to avoid the same occurrence.

Listening to a media reading of AG Barr's report on the report. There are a few key points:

2800 subpoenas, 500 witnesses, 2 years, and conclusion is - no evidence of collusion with Russia.

  • Russia - not collusion - is the biggest issue IMO. The special counsel has indicted and found ton's of evidence of Russian inference in our elections. How could that NOT be a big deal.
Clearly there was hacking by Russia. That's what Russia does. But there was no American - including Trump or any of his family found to have cooperated with any of these. That they only hacked the DNC would suggest a bias, eh. But I'm not too sure if there were or not attempts to hack any RNC's servers.

However: With regards to obstruction of justice, Mueller says "While the report concludes that the president did not commit a crime, it does not exonerate him."

It's going to be interesting to hear what people make of both the music and the silences in this report. Listening to Al Jazeera right now and CNN. Many want to find out what Mueller is saying in what he is NOT saying. Have to wait for the longer form release. We only have what Barr's.

Thanks again, really appreciated your reply. It was very helpful.

Cheers.
 

TheNorseman

Active Member
However: With regards to obstruction of justice, Mueller says "While the report concludes that the president did not commit a crime, it does not exonerate him."
Listen man, I appreciate you making a mature response to this, which is something I'm personally not very good at. But this whole thing was a hoax, clear and simple, everyone with a clear mind knows this. And you know this, you just wanted a different outcome. When it comes to politics, it's better to win on ideas instead of conspiracy theories.
 

creativeforge

Barefoot Heart Music
This tax payer funded smear campaign is a huge success.
The winner is Putin.

He slapped President Obama’s crew around for 8 years, then approved the Mueller Dossier for Hillary, and used her to divide Americans.
He ruined American Mainstream Media too. There’s your winner.

The loser, not really us, but take a good look at Hillary.
Ask yourself how would she have handled being blackmailed.
Adam Schiff: There is still ‘significant evidence of collusion’
03/24/2019 09:40 AM EDT

Hm... Schiff is saying there is "significant evidence" so he knows more than Mueller and his team of 40 lawyers? That they were what - blind? bought? partisan? dishonest?

But certainly Russia always had formidable chess players and strategists. Maybe Facebook, Twitter and Google should now be investigated as being the tools used by the hackers and fakenewsies. I think there could be Americans found who "colluded" alongside Russia operatives.

It's all the more important in light of 2020.
 

creativeforge

Barefoot Heart Music
Listen man, I appreciate you making a mature response to this, which is something I'm personally not very good at. But this whole thing was a hoax, clear and simple, everyone with a clear mind knows this. And you know this, you just wanted a different outcome.
OK, I'm sorry but I have to clarify that I'm NOT supporting the Democrats. I supported Trump the administration (not the personality) early on. And I'm a Canadian, so my support is not influential. But I've been drawn to US politics in the public square (through the media) from 2001 onward.

When it comes to politics, it's better to win on ideas instead of conspiracy theories.
Yes, totally agree. However conspiracy theories are joined at the hip with politics, via the media. The repercussions of this report should unite Americans to stand against Russian operatives and those from other countries in Asia. America is a bit prize to get for them. The chink in America's armor is social media.

As for the Russia probe, people on both sides really wanted the outcome to be something specific to their political support. I think it was wiser to accept the outcome fairly. If the President had been found guilty of colluding, it's not a partisan thing, it would mean he's a political criminal and Americans deserve better. You do the crime, you get caught, you do the time.

We can expect it's not over, though.

:)
 

TheNorseman

Active Member
Yes, totally agree. However conspiracy theories are joined at the hip with politics, via the media. The repercussions of this report should unite Americans to stand against Russian operatives and those from other countries in Asia. America is a bit prize to get for them. The chink in America's armor is social media.

As for the Russia probe, people on both sides really wanted the outcome to be something specific to their political support. I think it was wiser to accept the outcome fairly. If the President had been found guilty of colluding, it's not a partisan thing, it would mean he's a political criminal and Americans deserve better. You do the crime, you get caught, you do the time.

We can expect it's not over, though.

:)
See this is another place where we will disagree. I want better diplomatic ties with Russia, which is something that this hoax has stipend. Yes, it is wrong for them to interfere in US democratic elections, which by the way, they have been doing for 70 years, and the US has been doing to them. But no one has cared until now, why is that? The US interferes in elections everywhere in the world and no one has even brought up this issue.

It happens, it does not mean the US needs to destroy diplomatic relations with the 20+ countries that do this. Especially with nuclear powers. The democratic party and the US media wrecked relations all because they were upset that they didn't win an election. They are the mob, they are con artists.
 

chimuelo

Star Of Stage & Screen
These poor Liberals are only successful at losing.

Trump should pardon everyone, even losers like Cohen, then make Manafort Campaign Manager in 2020.

I would watch fake news just to see their faces.
 

creativeforge

Barefoot Heart Music
See this is another place where we will disagree. I want better diplomatic ties with Russia, which is something that this hoax has stipend. Yes, it is wrong for them to interfere in US democratic elections, which by the way, they have been doing for 70 years, and the US has been doing to them. But no one has cared until now, why is that? The US interferes in elections everywhere in the world and no one has even brought up this issue.

It happens, it does not mean the US needs to destroy diplomatic relations with the 20+ countries that do this. Especially with nuclear powers.
I essentially agree with you on this. Politics at that highest level is like 3D chess. Not just a campaign trail. You have to deal with realities of a world much bigger and much older than the USA, some are empires that have existed and ruled for centuries, on and off. You don't just sit these down for sensitivity workshops. And I don't think it's wise to try and dance the Charleston with someone holding grenades, you go slow, over a period of time.

And there is the question of respecting other countries right to auto-determination. Not widely popular, though, few can really afford to NOT keep an eye on their neighbor, or worse...
 
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patrick76

Senior Member
I had NO idea that Schiff was Asian, much less female.
That's because you haven't been reading the REAL news with the REAL facts. You must be reading the Post, which I'm quite certain lied to you about the gender and ethnicity of Schiff. I feel bad for you and your delusions!

And hey, all of a sudden, Mueller's report is credible. Mueller 4 Prez 2020!
 

creativeforge

Barefoot Heart Music
I keep watching the chest pounding by both Reps and Dems, it's somewhat embarrassing. People in rallies applaud and laugh on cue... Are they for real? I sometimes forget, politics is a team sport.

About those who DEMAND to see the WHOLE report, it would require the report to be redacted for classified info or information potentially damaging to potential further investigations (jury matters), yes?
 
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