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Now here...MOTU DP11

Dewdman42

Senior Member
I see that is a very small issue. DP has the commands thing for getting to any feature quick. You can assign hot keys to almost everything, and for the couple of things you might have to use a mouse (gasp) there is always Keyboard Maestro to solve it. This is not a serious consideration to make or break DP.

Comparing DP's gui to Reaper's is ludicrous. Reaper gui is crap.

StudioOne arguably has a lot of cool work flow productivity features above just about all the other daw's including DP, no doubt about that...
 

dts_marin

Member
I see that is a very small issue. DP has the commands thing for getting to any feature quick. You can assign hot keys to almost everything, and for the couple of things you might have to use a mouse (gasp) there is always Keyboard Maestro to solve it. This is not a serious consideration to make or break DP.

Comparing DP's gui to Reaper's is ludicrous. Reaper gui is crap.

StudioOne arguably has a lot of cool work flow productivity features above just about all the other daw's including DP, no doubt about that...
All those little things add up. Computers are designed around the keyboard. Even after decades of the addition of the mouse the keyboard still can do everything in a well designed software/OS. The mouse was a later addition and it isn't intuitive for repetitive tasks. DAWs have a ton of repetitive tasks.

Reaper and Studio One are special because they give access to behind the scenes data for a lot of functions which can be quite powerful.

To be fair my only experiences with DAWs are with DP and Reaper. Maybe other DAWs are a lot more restrictive than DP.

But the mouse isn't the best tool. Yeah it's convenient and you don't need to do anything else to use it but what if you want smarter and more reliable control?
 

Dewdman42

Senior Member
chunks and other unique features of DP add up to WAY more then you are making out of that mole hill. As I said you can solve your keyboard frustration with Keyboard Maestro.
 

Trensharo

Active Member
Figured out the Windows Key issue. DP uses the Windows key for a lot of keyboard shortcuts in the application, so it basically takes it over. It's a really awful thing they adopted when porting the application over from macOS.

I can't believe any developer would even think of doing such a thing. Imagine if Microsoft Word took over the Command Key in macOS and disabled all system-level keyboard shortcuts when it was in focus.
 

dterry

New Member
Figured out the Windows Key issue. DP uses the Windows key for a lot of keyboard shortcuts in the application, so it basically takes it over. It's a really awful thing they adopted when porting the application over from macOS.

I can't believe any developer would even think of doing such a thing. Imagine if Microsoft Word took over the Command Key in macOS and disabled all system-level keyboard shortcuts when it was in focus.
I've never found that to be a limitation but an advantage. It opens up many more key command combinations, and the ability to configure key commands around common modifiers to improve memorability and efficiency. The only thing I ever use the Windows key for is to pull up the Start Menu, and once in a DAW, I just don't need it. I actually wish other DAWs would take over the windows key. It's wasted key space for me most of the time.
 

Trensharo

Active Member
I've never found that to be a limitation but an advantage. It opens up many more key command combinations, and the ability to configure key commands around common modifiers to improve memorability and efficiency. The only thing I ever use the Windows key for is to pull up the Start Menu, and once in a DAW, I just don't need it. I actually wish other DAWs would take over the windows key. It's wasted key space for me most of the time.
How you use your PC is your prerogative, but WinKey is used in a ton of basic global keyboard shortcuts. Taking over it with an application is terrible. You can't even lock your PC if the Windows Key is taken over, unless you mouse over to Start and click three times. The Keyboard Shortcut uses the Windows key. It's not out of the realm of possibility that someone may want to lock their screen while DP is the active application... Or minimize everything to the desktop (Win-D). Or Open a File Explorer Windows (Win-E). Or Maximize (Win-Up) or Restore (Win-Down) an Application.

Most Accessibility Tools on the Windows OS are accessed using the keyboard shortcuts involving the Windows Key... Do you not see how this is a horrible idea?

There is a reason why NO OTHER DEVELOPER uses teh Windows Key for application shortcuts, and the only utilities that lock it are the Function-Win combo in some [gaming] keyboards and gaming presentation utilities that incorporate the function to avoid the user "windowing out" of a full screen task.

There are like 30+ system level global key commands in the OS that use that key. The key is used by the OS precisely to AVOID CLASHING WITH THIRD PARTY APPLICATION SHORTCUTS. By doing this, MOTU has basically designed their DAW to break the system whenever it is in focus.

It should be reserved for Windows, not taken hostage by applications. This is a horrible application design. 100% Broken by Design.

Your statement is nice - in theory - but this isn't the opening up of additional keyboard shortcuts. This seems like lazy porting from macOS to Windows. Because Windows Keyboards do not have a Command Key, MOTU seems to have decided to treat the Windows Key as if it functioned equivalently to Command on macOS; and merely replacing Command in the Key bindings with WinKey when they ported it over to Windows.

They did this with no thought being put to what the ramifications would be to the usability and accessibility of the user's system when their application is in focus.

That's without even getting to the complete disregard for standard key bindings for basic operations on the platform.

Tiny fonts, but literally blocks the Windows System shortcut for the Magnifier. How ironic.
 
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Trensharo

Active Member
chunks and other unique features of DP add up to WAY more then you are making out of that mole hill. As I said you can solve your keyboard frustration with Keyboard Maestro.
How does Keyboard Maestro help a Windows user?

Are you even keeping up with the recent posts in this thread?
 

dterry

New Member
How you use your PC is your prerogative, but WinKey is used in a ton of basic global keyboard shortcuts. Taking over it with an application is terrible. You can't even lock your PC if the Windows Key is taken over, unless you mouse over to Start and click three times. The Keyboard Shortcut uses the Windows key. It's not out of the realm of possibility that someone may want to lock their screen while DP is the active application... Or minimize everything to the desktop (Win-D). Or Open a File Explorer Windows (Win-E). Or Maximize (Win-Up) or Restore (Win-Down) an Application.

Most Accessibility Tools on the Windows OS are accessed using the keyboard shortcuts involving the Windows Key... Do you not see how this is a horrible idea?

There is a reason why NO OTHER DEVELOPER uses teh Windows Key for application shortcuts, and the only utilities that lock it are the Function-Win combo in some [gaming] keyboards and gaming presentation utilities that incorporate the function to avoid the user "windowing out" of a full screen task.

There are like 30+ system level global key commands in the OS that use that key. The key is used by the OS precisely to AVOID CLASHING WITH THIRD PARTY APPLICATION SHORTCUTS. By doing this, MOTU has basically designed their DAW to break the system whenever it is in focus.

It should be reserved for Windows, not taken hostage by applications. This is a horrible application design. 100% Broken by Design.

Your statement is nice - in theory - but this isn't the opening up of additional keyboard shortcuts. This seems like lazy porting from macOS to Windows. Because Windows Keyboards do not have a Command Key, MOTU seems to have decided to treat the Windows Key as if it functioned equivalently to Command on macOS; and merely replacing Command in the Key bindings with WinKey when they ported it over to Windows.

They did this with no thought being put to what the ramifications would be to the usability and accessibility of the user's system when their application is in focus.

That's without even getting to the complete disregard for standard key bindings for basic operations on the platform.

Tiny fonts, but literally blocks the Windows System shortcut for the Magnifier. How ironic.
If you dislike DP so much, just use something else. Why waste time complaining about something you obviously despise and can't change? Despite what you might assume, a 4th modifier key does in fact increase the key command options to twice the total number of key commands possible with ctrl, alt and shift.

MOTU hasn't broken anything. Windows works just fine. Yes, I do see how some would be put out by losing their Windows shortcuts, but I guess it depends on what you spend most of your time doing. Once I open a DAW, I rarely need to OS shortcuts. Too busy working. Seriously. It isn't much different for Mac users. The cmd key is used by DP there too, and they've been just fine for years.

Yes, MOTU did use the Win key to replace the command/Apple key, otherwise the Win version of DP would not be compatible with the Mac version, and require a completely new set of default key commands. DP10 and 11 allow you to resize the GUI. Search for it in the manual. There is also a preference to resize some fonts. Both work fine. Some text is still small - a long time complaint, and not one likely to change anytime soon. DP may need a GUI rebuild, but the Cmd/Win key is an asset for those who use it daily. If you don't like it, that's just fine, but you really should find another DAW.
 
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ka00

Senior Member
How you use your PC is your prerogative, but WinKey is used in a ton of basic global keyboard shortcuts. Taking over it with an application is terrible. You can't even lock your PC if the Windows Key is taken over, unless you mouse over to Start and click three times. The Keyboard Shortcut uses the Windows key. It's not out of the realm of possibility that someone may want to lock their screen while DP is the active application... Or minimize everything to the desktop (Win-D). Or Open a File Explorer Windows (Win-E). Or Maximize (Win-Up) or Restore (Win-Down) an Application.

Most Accessibility Tools on the Windows OS are accessed using the keyboard shortcuts involving the Windows Key... Do you not see how this is a horrible idea?

There is a reason why NO OTHER DEVELOPER uses teh Windows Key for application shortcuts, and the only utilities that lock it are the Function-Win combo in some [gaming] keyboards and gaming presentation utilities that incorporate the function to avoid the user "windowing out" of a full screen task.

There are like 30+ system level global key commands in the OS that use that key. The key is used by the OS precisely to AVOID CLASHING WITH THIRD PARTY APPLICATION SHORTCUTS. By doing this, MOTU has basically designed their DAW to break the system whenever it is in focus.

It should be reserved for Windows, not taken hostage by applications. This is a horrible application design. 100% Broken by Design.

Your statement is nice - in theory - but this isn't the opening up of additional keyboard shortcuts. This seems like lazy porting from macOS to Windows. Because Windows Keyboards do not have a Command Key, MOTU seems to have decided to treat the Windows Key as if it functioned equivalently to Command on macOS; and merely replacing Command in the Key bindings with WinKey when they ported it over to Windows.

They did this with no thought being put to what the ramifications would be to the usability and accessibility of the user's system when their application is in focus.

That's without even getting to the complete disregard for standard key bindings for basic operations on the platform.

Tiny fonts, but literally blocks the Windows System shortcut for the Magnifier. How ironic.
Can’t you just quickly press Alt + Tab to switch to any other app and then use your Win shortcuts to do whatever other thing you wanted to do while using DP?
 

Trensharo

Active Member
Can’t you just quickly press Alt + Tab to switch to any other app and then use your Win shortcuts to do whatever other thing you wanted to do while using DP?
No. Because some shortcuts are used to bring other applications like File Explorer over the active application etc.

Alt tabbing out is completely missing the point. Why even care, at that point. The point of using the shortcut is to speed up workflow, not slow it down. Your workaround is worse than. Reaching for the mouse to click an icon on the taskbar (which there are also WinKey shortcuts for, BTW).

I can pretty much operate a Windows PC without a mouse, except when DP is in focus.

And I will always try the shortcut first, because NO other application does this, and its what I've been doing for 25+ years. That key does not exist to be used by third party applications in this way.

Like I said, it renders any machine inaccessible when DP is in focus. It completelt nerfs usability by forcing you to reach for a mouse or constantly bounce the app out and into focus.

Do people here even use a Windows machine at all, or beyond basic proficiency. Serious question. I'm wondering if these are Mac users giving "workarounds" without knowing how this actually feels to use or affects usability on the host system.

Do they block global Command Key access on macOS when the DAW is in focus?
 
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Dewdman42

Senior Member
I don't use a PC with a windows key, I don't think I've ever owned a PC with a windows key. So I'm not sure why MOTU would be using the windows key for its own commands. I don't have a way right now to test it out so I can only go on the words of Trensharo, but it does sound like, on the surface, MOTU may have used some system level key command modifiers they shouldn't have. I would suggest writing a pleasant letter to MOTU on this point.

@Trensharo, have you tried modifying your DP key commands to avoid conflict with the windows key? Just go into the commands dialog and change all the conflicting key commands. ??
 

dts_marin

Member
chunks and other unique features of DP add up to WAY more then you are making out of that mole hill. As I said you can solve your keyboard frustration with Keyboard Maestro.
Many UI elements are impossible to automate reliably without resorting to pixel search which is slow. For example the track color popup.

I've automated a lot of stuff with AutoHotKey and Keyboard Maestro in DP (love MacOS but Apple doesn't think I'm worthy of having a desktop Mac so I'm forced to use a PC)

I have no issues with using KM or AHK but there is a lot o functionality that should have keyboard access.

The Articulation Map Setup window for example. Try recording the time it takes to create the same expression map in Studio One and then in DP. You will quickly realize that Presonus did their homework and mapped all the crucial controls to the keyboard resulting in a blazing fast workflow.
 

dterry

New Member
The Articulation Map Setup window for example. Try recording the time it takes to create the same expression map in Studio One and then in DP. You will quickly realize that Presonus did their homework and mapped all the crucial controls to the keyboard resulting in a blazing fast workflow.
Search the key commands window for "Articulation Map Setup", and assign whatever key command you like.

Studio One vs DP: Try assigning program changes to trigger articulations in Studio One. Not supported as of 5.4 (hopefully Presonus will add this eventually). I use program changes exclusively as there are far more available than free keys, especially for libraries like VSL's Synchron series.

I've compared Cubase, DP, ProTools and Studio One with identical templates many times. Each has at least a few advantages over the other three, but Nuendo/Cubase and DP hit the most marks for film scoring (I don't have Logic to compare, but obviously it is also very popular).

Studio One is fine for basic templates, but scrolling through tracks becomes too sluggish with larger templates. S1's articulation mapping from imports and tree-layout is a bit of a visual mess. DP's is much easier to read. Also, DP supports dragging articulation triggers between articulation lanes. Nuendo/Cubase do not (I don't remember if S1 does). Also, no surround in S1. That's a serious limitation for me. Studio One has a lot of great features, but it's interface (especially the track inspector/left side) has some quick-visibility problems.
 
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Trensharo

Active Member
I really like their implementation of editing articulations in DP11. It's probably the best implementation that I've used thus far (out of Cubase, Logic, Studio One and DP).

The Articulation Map editor is also one the best one I've used.

I don't like how some of the tooltips below the MIDI Editor run off the screen when you're trying to figure out what those checkboxes do. They're unreasonable. Have to resize the DAW window to see them if you're using it maximized.
 

dts_marin

Member
Search the key commands window for "Articulation Map Setup", and assign whatever key command you like. Try assigning program changes and delays to articulation triggers in Studio One. I use program changes exclusively as there are far more available than free keys, especially for libraries like VSL's Synchron series.

I've compared Cubase, DP, ProTools and Studio One with identical templates many times. Each has at least a few advantages over the other three, but only Nuendo/Cubase and DP really hit all of the marks for film scoring.

Studio One is fine for basic templates, but becomes too sluggish with larger templates. S1's articulation mapping from imports is a bit of a visual mess. DP's is much easier to read. Also, DP's articulation lanes support dragging articulations between lanes, Nuendo/Cubase do not (I don't remember if S1 does). Also, no surround in S1. That's a serious limitation for me.
I don't really care about other features in this case. The only thing I compared was the speed of creating expression maps which is really impacted by the omission of the keyboard.

Please try creating an expression map in S1. During almost the entire process your hands don't need to leave the keyboard. Advancing to the next articulation, changing its remote trigger and output parameters all done via the keyboard.

Now do the same in DP feel the resistance and the constant need to reach for the mouse to navigate. So slow in comparison.
 

dterry

New Member
I don't like how some of the tooltips below the MIDI Editor run off the screen when you're trying to figure out what those checkboxes do. They're unreasonable. Have to resize the DAW window to see them if you're using it maximized.
That's worth filing a Techlink with MOTU support. I reported the tool box menus being cutoff in an earlier version of DP11, and they fixed that, but tool tips are still hidden. That should be fixed. Most of us probably run DP or any DAW maximized.
 

dterry

New Member
I don't really care about other features in this case. The only thing I compared was the speed of creating expression maps which is really impacted by the omission of the keyboard.

Please try creating an expression map in S1. During almost the entire process your hands don't need to leave the keyboard. Advancing to the next articulation, changing its remote trigger and output parameters all done via the keyboard.

Now do the same in DP feel the resistance and the constant need to reach for the mouse to navigate. So slow in comparison.
I did. The tree structure is a mess. I get the idea, but visually it is terrible for articulations.

But that was all moot point since S1 didn't support program changes. I did create key switch maps just to compare, and S1 is fine once setup - not my favorite though.

Efficient setup windows are great, if they are needed frequently. And S1 does a lot of things right when it comes to navigation - such as highlighting the most relevant entry field, or tabbing through a setup window (good, but limited when adding tracks).

However, I generally setup articulation maps once for my VEP host/slave setup. If we were to compare the fastest for setting up templates, ProTools would win hands down for complete key command/modifier access to adding multiple tracks at once, and then routing multiple tracks as well. In my comparisons, PT beat all of them for speed of setting up a large template for that feature alone. S1 has some of this, but it is still far behind PT. Of course that gain is obviously lost when pitting PT's limited midi editing.

If S1 works great for you - awesome. I do like S1 in general, but it is still missing too much to beat out either Nuendo or DP for scoring, for me at least. Speed really comes down to the whole package - not just setting up a template - first note of sketching ideas, to stems delivery.
 
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Dewdman42

Senior Member
Another thing I really like about DP's articulation management...if you are smart about how you name your articulations, you can literally copy and paste notes, phrases or regions from one track to a completely different track using a completely different instrument and articulation map (but with smartly named articulations) and DP will automatically apply the old articulations in the right way. I don't think ANY of the other DAW'S can do that. Also...DP is alone I offering per-articulation latency management.

In the past many people have complained incessantly about the terrible articulation map editors in LogicPro and Cubase...I think MOTU did a much better job then those two. S1 users love to brag about workflow efficiencies in S1 and they aren't entirely wrong, S1 is a relatively new DAW and many smart things were done in it, but I also find it to pretty much always coming up short-of-full on professional duties. It always seems to offer only 75% of what the big long standing power players offer....good enough for writing songs and more simple tasks, but simply falling way short of the others for large projects and certain kinds of situations.. But it does have great drag and drop workflows, and apparently you can touch type your articulation maps in via the keyboard..cool...but still...overall it simply cannot compete for some heavy duty scenarios. I did not upgrade my S1 v4 and will not be upgrading it any time soon. For me, S1 is more like a toy for hobbyists. Why are we talking about S1 on this thread about DP? DP offers way more power then S1, its not even close to the same league.
 
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