What's new

Now here...MOTU DP11

dts_marin

Member
How long are you talking? I've never really noticed a big gap? Pretty much every DAW on my system here GUI wise isn't as "snappy" as Logic though if that's the comparison.
Well in other DAWs you can pencil in automation during playback. Try that in DP on a hefty project. The whole software freezes even on a very fast machine with 10-15% realtime CPU. Also during playback try hovering the pencil or reshape tool in the Sequence Editor you will notice a frame drop/lagginess.
 
Well in other DAWs you can pencil in automation during playback. Try that in DP on a hefty project. The whole software freezes even on a very fast machine with 10-15% realtime CPU. Also during playback try hovering the pencil or reshape tool in the Sequence Editor you will notice a frame drop/lagginess.
OK yeah that's another issue, I've mixed results there. I went on a search for an MPE DAW a couple years ago when both DP and Live which were my main DAWs at the time did not natively support MPE. Live and Bitwig both of course handle this type of drawing or doing anything really with the timeline running really well, but it comes at a CPU hit, neither can handle the track counts that Reaper, DP, and Logic can. Reaper more or less beats out Logic and DP in terms of what you're saying, but it's random, sometimes a big project will kill Reaper entirely, and anyone using Logic knows about overload messages when doing what you describe.

I'm not a fan of the way DP handles it, but I haven't personally run into many solutions that are great. To be fair though DP is more touchy than it should be in terms of messing with things while the sequence is running, the fact it consistently glitches turning on and off Memory Cycle is circa 2000 level code.
 

Trensharo

Active Member
I don't particularly think embedding the manual is the right approach. You can simply copy the PDF to your touchpad and view it that way.
A PDF isn't very usable.

They need context sensitive help neither using native help files (i.e. CHM on Windows) or a viewer similar to what is used by software like Studio One or the Affinity software applications.

At the very least, link to web-based help pages (Cubase, Cakewalk, and others).

Lack of context sensitive help in software this vast is a bad thing.

Having to dig through a PDF file for everything (well, two large PDFs) is not very efficient.
 

Trensharo

Active Member
Oh there's still room for DP to grow. Numerous things that could be reworked and refined, if nothing else. I don't particularly think it needs a lot of "feature creep" per say, but then again...I thought I could live without the CLIPS feature until I saw a MOTU video about it and suddenly I'm like hey I should try to use that more...

what comes next? I have no idea. But the DAW makers will think of something, else they won't have a way to generate upgrade revenue.

MOTU could easily do things like:

  1. add more and better software instruments bundled with it
I don't agree with this. There are far higher priorities for a DAW in this day and age. The only thing they probably should add is a drum sampler - though most people producing that type of music are likely to invest in Native Instruments. So, even that is something that can waste development resources when juxtaposed against the target user base.

The virtual instrument market is huge, now, and prices are lower than ever. They will end up with stuff that most people never use, since they will have (or soon acquire) better.

I don't think feature creep is a thing unless the developers have marketed the software on being minimalistic. Feature bloat is never really a problem. How those features are organized is usually what people have issue with.

In many cases, the software ends up either over-modularized (Cakewalk/SONAR, MPC 2) or cluttered (Samplitude Pro X, REAPER), which are both problematic in terms of feature discoverability, providing distractions, or delivering an efficient workflow.

It is VERY hard to find a balance with software that has a large feature set. I don't think Any DAW has really cracked that code. People just pick the least annoying option for them (or what they're required to use, and get used/acclimate to it).

If they have a sale over black Friday I may pick up a copy of DP on crossgrade. I can't justify $400 for it, though, especially if the VST3 support is buggy. I already have a few plugins/VIs that are VST3 only - and I use them a lot.

It does seem like it has everything you'd need for Film work, composition and production, though.

And I like that it has a consistent lite theme. I am becoming exasperated with all these dark software applications. I don't have time to do developers' work for them trying to scrounge together a better theme.
 

60s Pop Man

New Member
The only thing they probably should add is a drum sampler
From my perspective MOTU needs to add drum and percussion notation to QS and refresh the graphics in the Notation Editor to be on par with QS.

Included instruments are nice to have as in LPX but I have many other options so that's not a critical need for me.
 

Dewdman42

Senior Member
A PDF isn't very usable.

They need context sensitive help neither using native help files (i.e. CHM on Windows) or a viewer similar to what is used by software like Studio One or the Affinity software applications.

My comment was not about whether pdf is the right solution it was with regards to how to see the current user manual from a remote touch device. The current manual is in pdf form.

I agree with you that this is another area where it could be improved, better context sensitive help, particularly for new users.

However I think this is unlikely to be changed much in the foreseeable future. Motu has arguably the best and most detailed user manual of any of the big daws. It used to ship with the product as a very thick user manual that covers every detail. Decades of work have gone into that manual. I wish the other daws would add a more detailed and thorough user manual that is on par with DP’s. The others are typically missing many details that have to answered by searching user forums for answers.

Now if they could take their most likely frame maker sources and build a context sensitive help system? Maybe and it would be welcome perhaps but all I’m saying is that their big thick and detailed user manual in pdf form is very welcome to me. You can search pdf files too by the way.

Chm files are not how current help systems are handled by the way. Everything is web based now, but I am sure that there would be a very big effort involved to reasonably translate all the deep info contained in DP’s current user manual from its current form to a context sensitive help system and particularly if you expect to retain the same level of depth and detail that is in DP’s current manual that was authored over decades of effort.
 

Al Maurice

Active Member
DP does have a web based help of sorts, but it's very basic at the moment and just covers the rudimentary features -- quite similar to Studio One's offering which leaves little to be desired.

Like others here, I prefer to have access to a detailed manual or reference guide, I find it helps to do a deep dive into any particular functionality where necessary.

I'm not a fan of most of the help systems, such as Steinberg's offerings -- they tend to require lots of browsing just to get access to information which could better be organised on a single web page with modern reponsive UX design: leaving me no further enlightened that when I started my search ...
 
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Tren

Member
My comment was not about whether pdf is the right solution it was with regards to how to see the current user manual from a remote touch device. The current manual is in pdf form.

I agree with you that this is another area where it could be improved, better context sensitive help, particularly for new users.

However I think this is unlikely to be changed much in the foreseeable future. Motu has arguably the best and most detailed user manual of any of the big daws. It used to ship with the product as a very thick user manual that covers every detail. Decades of work have gone into that manual. I wish the other daws would add a more detailed and thorough user manual that is on par with DP’s. The others are typically missing many details that have to answered by searching user forums for answers.

Now if they could take their most likely frame maker sources and build a context sensitive help system? Maybe and it would be welcome perhaps but all I’m saying is that their big thick and detailed user manual in pdf form is very welcome to me. You can search pdf files too by the way.

Chm files are not how current help systems are handled by the way. Everything is web based now, but I am sure that there would be a very big effort involved to reasonably translate all the deep info contained in DP’s current user manual from its current form to a context sensitive help system and particularly if you expect to retain the same level of depth and detail that is in DP’s current manual that was authored over decades of effort.
Multiple software applications I own still ship offline context sensitive help - either in the form of CHM, or using their own Help Viewers for the application. This includes both macOS and Windows applications.

Studio One has Offline Help, and it's own Help Viewer. Logic Pro and GarageBand have Offline Help.

Logic, Cubase, and other DAWs all have really good documentation. I am not saying the quality of the PDF Documentation is bad, but when you're on your computer using the software and you need to know how to do something; pressing F1 and then searching for that function is a far superior option.

Otherwise, your entire use of the product is heavily throttled - no one wants to dela with that, especially when they have another DAW they can use more efficiently or productively.

Lots of products - back in the day - shipped great written user manuals. That was kind of the norm.

I don't expect a prouct like DP, which ported super late to the Windows OS - to use CHM documentation on that platform. That was just an example, not an expectation. As I stated (in that same sentence), they could use their own help viewer and that would be 100% fine. CHM is deprecated, anyways ;)
 

Tren

Member
DP does have a web based help of sorts, but it's very basic at the moment and just covers the rudimentary features -- quite similar to Studio One's offering which leaves little to be desired.

Like others here, I prefer to have access to a detailed manual or reference guide, I find it helps to do a deep dive into any particular functionality where necessary.

I'm not a fan of most of the help systems, such as Steinberg's offerings -- they tend to require lots of browsing just to get access to information which could better be organised on a single web page with modern reponsive UX design: leaving me no further enlightened that when I started my search ...
The full Studio One 5 Pro documentation is available offline in their help viewer. It's context-sensitive and very well illustrated and hyperlinked.

Having a context-sensitive help system in the software is not mutually exclusive with well-written documentation. Cubase, Cakewalk, Studio One, etc. all deliver both.

I don't really care how good the PDF documentation is. It's a net loss to me if I have to literally stop doing what I'm doing to open a PDF, search it (ugh...) and find what I'm looking for - instead of pressing F1 and just having the help system bring me to the place where I want to be (much faster).

Good Reference Documentation has its place, but it is not a replacement for an application help system.

There's a reason why - even back in the 80s and 90s - when software shipped with several huge books worth of Physical Reference Manuals - they still had decent help systems in the application.

Literally nothing has changed since then, other than the latter disappearing for arbitrary reasons (in many cases).
 

Dewdman42

Senior Member
Otherwise, your entire use of the product is heavily throttled - no one wants to dela with that, especially when they have another DAW they can use more efficiently or productively.

I think you mean to say “learn” more productively. I very rarely need to actually consult DP’s help or manual and this little to no impact on using DP productively.
 

cuttime

Active Member
DP 11.02 up. Note Rewire support removed.

Enhancements introduced in version 11.02

Enhancements and optimizations
• Added an MCU "single fader" plugin. Useful for iCON Platform Nano, Presonus Faderport, and any other single-channel MCU control surface.

Fixes
• Added an explanatory message when new users are asked to grant DP permission to access the microphone (audio inputs).
• Console 1 (VST3): Bound the values coming from the control surface to avoid wrap-around.
• Disabled invalid score arrangement commands in the QS contextual menu when the mini-menu disables them.
• Fixed a bug causing POLAR text labels to collide on Windows.
• Fixed a bug causing notes to be selectable by invisible velocity events in the CC editor while in line mode.
• Fixed a bug where notes can get selected via articulations in the midi continuous data pane even if no articulation map is selected for the track.
• Fixed a bug where retrospective midi record would not work with articulation maps.
• Fixed a bug with scene indexing on the Akai APC family of controllers causing the scene launch buttons not to scroll when the grid is moved.
• Fixed a graphical glitch when switching custom console pages.
• Fixed updating of newly recorded automation types when moving the counter after a record pass.
• Improved chasing of per note events.
• Improved the Eucon open/close plugin behavior.
• Removed ReWire support. ReWire has reached end-of-life and can no longer be supported reliably.
 
As far as context sensitive help docs are concerned, I rarely have a problem it helps with, as a long time user it's always difficult issues I'm dealing with, nothing a context sensitive Help will actually fix. I've been years away from Logic, but the same applies there, I generally have to google most of the questions I have, even with Logic's extensive in DAW help.
 

dts_marin

Member
I really do think these smaller & more frequent updates are a lot better for DP at its current state. Until most of the nasty bugs are fixed they need to be active and move quickly. Let's hope this trend continues. No need to approach Reaper levels of frequency but recently Studio One is a good example of a regularly updated DAW with a balance of big new features and minor optimizations.
 

Trensharo

Active Member
As far as context sensitive help docs are concerned, I rarely have a problem it helps with, as a long time user it's always difficult issues I'm dealing with, nothing a context sensitive Help will actually fix. I've been years away from Logic, but the same applies there, I generally have to google most of the questions I have, even with Logic's extensive in DAW help.
Using a DAW is like riding a bike, outside of a fundamental redesign of the software, you don't unlearn everything simply because you took a few years off.

I haven't ridden a bike in over two decades, yet I know can hop on one and off I go. Just cause it's been a while doesn't mean I'll need Google to tell me how to pop the chain back on when it pops off.

The reason why you only encounter that situation is because you're already familiar with the software, its workflow and its nomenclature.

The documentation issue affects new users disproportionately more than those with prior, long term exposure to the software. You retain information from previous use of the software. We (I and people like myself) are coming to it with no prior exposure, in addition to workflows and nomenclature carried over from competing software.

Context sensitive help isn't just for solving problems. It's a more efficient way of learning the software and acclimating nomenclature that is different from other similar applications.

And no, I am not going to read the DP Manual like Anna Karenina.

At this price point, a functional context help system is a fairly basic expectation. That being said, I don't think my initial post re: it was so inflammatory that the worthless quip from that blocked poster upthread was necessary 😉
 

Kevin Fortin

Active Member
Using a DAW is like riding a bike, outside of a fundamental redesign of the software, you don't unlearn everything simply because you took a few years off.

I haven't ridden a bike in over two decades, yet I know can hop on one and off I go. Just cause it's been a while doesn't mean I'll need Google to tell me how to pop the chain back on when it pops off.

The reason why you only encounter that situation is because you're already familiar with the software, its workflow and its nomenclature.

The documentation issue affects new users disproportionately more than those with prior, long term exposure to the software. You retain information from previous use of the software. We (I and people like myself) are coming to it with no prior exposure, in addition to workflows and nomenclature carried over from competing software.

Context sensitive help isn't just for solving problems. It's a more efficient way of learning the software and acclimating nomenclature that is different from other similar applications.

And no, I am not going to read the DP Manual like Anna Karenina.
It looks like you're willing to write, but not willing to read. Is that right?
 

Trensharo

Active Member
I read. Post disregards the situation im referring to. No one is saying long time users need help. If they're that fluent with the software, go them. Did you read my response? It kind of answers your question...

You could say the same about the post responding to me, BTW.

Whats your point?
It looks like you're willing to write, but not willing to read. Is that right?
 

Trensharo

Active Member
Perhaps you are more of a jackass than you can perceive on your own, and this is how we inform you about that. ;)
You make literally no sense.

I'm not here to be nice. I don't care if you like me. My opinion has as much right to be here as anyone else's. Feel free to disagree, but don't troll - like you're doing atm.
 
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