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Now here...MOTU DP11

60s Pop Man

New Member
I just reported this VST3 issue as a Tech Link at MOTU and referenced thread here:
https://vi-control.net/community/threads/now-here-motu-dp11.111728/page-9


Maybe if enough of us make some noise about this they will expedite a resolution. In the meantime, I'm really enjoying the use of Studio One 5.3, VST3 instruments, and automatic sound variation (ariticulation map) creation.
MOTU tech got back to me with a video file reply - very cool, very helpful!

They are working on Kontakt 6.6 VST3 passing the plug-in scan but can't say when this will be resolved.

They also pointed out that automatic creation of articulation maps is not an absolute given with VST3 plug-ins. The function needs to be available in the plug-in.
 

Dewdman42

Senior Member
I would imagine so, glad to hear MOTU is actually working on getting Kontakt to scan and not leaving it up to NI.

What kind of video reply did MOTU send you? that's kind of interesting....


Here are some other notable VST3's on my system that can't run as of now:

Kontakt, fiedler audio stage, Z3TA+2, Waves Scheps Omni Channel, Waves Meta Filter, Waves CLA echospere, Bass Mint, TrackSpare, Torpedo Wall of Sound, TR5 Leslie, TR5 DeEsser, S-Gear, BlueCatAudio Patchwork, BlueCatAudio PlugNScript, OPX-Pro II, Some Melda stuff, Some Hornet stuff, Dexed, pretty much everything from U-He

Anyway, I have it from a reliable source that MOTU is putting some attention into improving the scanning process in general.... so let's hope in an update or two...everything will be improved.

But I also just want to emphasize again..I don't think as of now that anyone is missing anything by using the VST2 or AU version of Kontakt or really much else either...except for maybe OPUS and Synchron if you will be using Sound Variation feature.
 

60s Pop Man

New Member
What kind of video reply did MOTU send you? that's kind of interesting....
An mp4. of the tech's desktop, showing my question and other information including the BabylonWaves for DP. It really was a personalized message unlike anything from any other developer that I've experienced. MOTU Techlink.png
I don't think as of now that anyone is missing anything by using the VST2 or AU version of Kontakt or really much else either...except for maybe OPUS and Synchron if you will be using Sound Variation feature.
In the past, I never really cared, having some vague understanding that VST versions can pass MIDI whereas AU versions not having that functionality. But now seeing the ease of setting up articulation maps and sound variations, there's now a keen interest in having Kontakt 6.6 and HALion 6.4.x VST3 pass in DP.

Bottom line for me, hat's off to Presonus for being so progressive, and to the DP development team for DP 11. Hoping more good things are coming.
 
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Dewdman42

Senior Member
In the past, I never really cared, having some vague understanding that VST versions can pass MIDI whereas AU versions not having that functionality. But now seeing the ease of setting up articulation maps and sound variations, there's now a keen interest in having Kontakt 6.6 and HALion 6.4.x VST3 pass in DP.

Fair enough, but still, keep in mind that the instrument has to have implemented specific support fro Sound Variations...which you already noted..which means...when KOntkat VST3 starts to work on DP..its not going to be giving you any sound variations any time soon. In my view it would require NI to also provide new behaviors through KSP so that instrument developers can eventually implement Sound Variation into their instruments. I think that will be long ways away, years, before we will see any Sound Variations coming out of Kontakt...but we shall see.
 
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Lukas

Senior Member
In my view it would require NI to also provide new behaviors through KSP so that instrument developers can eventually implement Sound Variation into their instruments.
No, not necessarily. Many Kontakt libraries use the set_key_name(...) function to name keyswitches. So in this case Kontakt already knows the pitches and names of the keyswitches (also the color if a color is set via set_key_color(...)). Also the name of the instrument. So with this information, Kontakt could easily expose Sound Variations to the host.

This would automatically make even older Kontakt libraries sound variation capable - without any effort on the part of the developer. In my opinion, this would be more promising than hoping that every library developer will add Sound Variations support to all his sample libraries - which will certainly never happen with older libraries.

I really wish NI would do this.
 

Dewdman42

Senior Member
No, not necessarily. Many Kontakt libraries use the set_key_name(...) function to name keyswitches. So in this case Kontakt knows the pitches and the names of the keyswitches (also the color if set_key_color(...) is used as well). Also the name of the instrument. With this information, Kontakt could easily expose Sound Variations to the DAW.

nice to hear! Let's hope NI will add that to Kontakt sooner then later... Lukas does that require VST3 or could NI add that to their VST and AU version also just as easily?
 

Al Maurice

Active Member
Sounds like a positive step -- with NI shifting their focus to their VST3 plugin version, is it likely this will be implemented in the VST2 version too?
 

Dewdman42

Senior Member
I don't think I would draw the conclusion that NI is "shifting their focus" away from VST2 or AU for that matter, they are adding VST3. According to EvilDragon, it was merely ported with all the same existing features to the VST3 format, at least for now:


I interpret that to mean that if they were to decide to add Sound Variation support to Kontakt, it would end up in all three formats of the plugin.
 

Lukas

Senior Member
I agree with @Dewdman42 . First of all, I don't think NI is shifting their focus. The VST3 version of Kontakt is not a "real" VST3 instrument but is still a VST2 plug-in using a VST3 wrapper. (Hence no VST3 specific features.)

Then the new VST3 version has nothing at all to do with whether they are considering implementing Sound Variations. Because they could have done that just as well in the VST2 version.

But let's be optimistic and promote as best we can how valuable this feature would be to the composer world. There are already two DAWs that can do Sound Variations and it certainly doesn't stop there. So the argument that you would only implement for one DAW here doesn't apply anymore. With VSL and East West, two leading sample players already support it... and there are more to come (I can't tell more).

The great thing is that no sample library would need to change anything as long as they expose the names of their keyswitches via set_key_name. I took a quick look at some of my favorite Kontakt libraries and found that all of them already do that:

- Cinematic Studio Strings / Brass / Woodwinds
- Sonuscore The Orchestra
- Spitfire OA Chamber Evolutions
- Project SAM Pandora
- Audio Imperia Areia
- Chris Hein Solo Strings

So it's just up to NI to implement Sound Variations into the player :)
 
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Dewdman42

Senior Member
Just want to report in that I have been spending a pretty good amount of time playing around with DP11, and actually exploring more deeply some features that have actually been in DP for quite a while but I never got around to really understanding...namely chunks..

I think I have found a new home! DP chunks are winning me over big time. I had a feeling it would. Its not just chunks, but its sequence chunks combined with V-Racks... This is going to be a complete game changer for me.

The Clips Editor is also something I overlooked previously and after watching their 90 minute covid Webinar about it...I can see that actually being quite a bit more useful than previously thought.

Some other notable features I am liking are bundles, Midi Device Groups, Clippings window, and Folder/Track mangement...my god its lightyears ahead of LogicPro in terms of Folders and the Track Selector/TrackLayouts, etc..

I love that their undo manager has branching! Wow, now that is real version control. And then we can also duplicate chunks very easily to create endless sequence variations all within one project file.

I know I'm just scratching the surface, but I just wanted to say, I'm in...
 

kgdrum

Greetings
What’s funny is I’m been contemplating moving from DP to Logic, I’m by no means a power user so I doubt I’d ever get into any DAW that deep. 😱 lol
I really like Logics efficiency and it might seem silly but I love Logics iPad integration with the control app and the manual,it’s so useful and makes recording much easier when I’m play my eDrum kit.
I haven’t been able to figure out the issue we discussed last week (I will send you the file next week if I don’t solve it on my own).
Logic & DP are both extremely capable,deep and complex DAWs,learning & figuring out to take advantage of the amazing capabilities they offer for me can be quite daunting.
 

Dewdman42

Senior Member
I do think LogicPro is a little easier to get your head wrapped around, no doubt about it. For simple scenarios...I think its is more simple...DP is far more flexible in my view...but its also not entirely straightforward to figure out how to set it up unless you dig into it a bit to understand quite a few things...because it has very flexible and explicit routing, more than anything.

LogicPro tends to run into dead ends on a number of advanced scenarios... Forcing people into complicated environment setups, and sometimes running into weird multi-instrument bugs and things like that. but for simple usage, LogicPro is great. Hell you can put it into "simple" mode and its even easier, more like GarageBand...

I am suspicious that you have a master fader somewhere turned down and hidden in the problem you are having, but I'd have to see your project to say anything further.
 

kgdrum

Greetings
ps - I think you might be a prime candidate for StudioOne, from the sounds of it.
@Dewdman42
“ I am suspicious that you have a master fader somewhere turned down and hidden in the problem you are having, but I'd have to see your project to say anything further.”
Maybe I’m dense but wouldn’t a master fader affect all channels?
Drummer jokes welcome 🤗
 

gzapper

Active Member
Just want to report in that I have been spending a pretty good amount of time playing around with DP11, and actually exploring more deeply some features that have actually been in DP for quite a while but I never got around to really understanding...namely chunks..

I think I have found a new home! DP chunks are winning me over big time. I had a feeling it would. Its not just chunks, but its sequence chunks combined with V-Racks... This is going to be a complete game changer for me.

The Clips Editor is also something I overlooked previously and after watching their 90 minute covid Webinar about it...I can see that actually being quite a bit more useful than previously thought.

Some other notable features I am liking are bundles, Midi Device Groups, Clippings window, and Folder/Track mangement...my god its lightyears ahead of LogicPro in terms of Folders and the Track Selector/TrackLayouts, etc..

I love that their undo manager has branching! Wow, now that is real version control. And then we can also duplicate chunks very easily to create endless sequence variations all within one project file.

I know I'm just scratching the surface, but I just wanted to say, I'm in...
Chunks are super powerful if you do film work, or theatre work like I do. Just finished a show with 200 or so cues all within the same DP file. You can have one seq for spotting, select the cue time from that spot and save it to a new sequence giving you the right time code.

V-racks are great and smart use of resources, like a small VEP rig inside DP.
Clippings are really handy, having project and universal clippings are great, save effect changes, sounds, kits, fills, runs or whatever you think you want commonly.
 

Dewdman42

Senior Member
@Dewdman42
“ I am suspicious that you have a master fader somewhere turned down and hidden in the problem you are having, but I'd have to see your project to say anything further.”
Maybe I’m dense but wouldn’t a master fader affect all channels?
Drummer jokes welcome 🤗

yes it would.

I don't know the details of your project, I haven't seen it.
 

Dewdman42

Senior Member
Chunks are super powerful if you do film work, or theatre work like I do. Just finished a show with 200 or so cues all within the same DP file. You can have one seq for spotting, select the cue time from that spot and save it to a new sequence giving you the right time code.

V-racks are great and smart use of resources, like a small VEP rig inside DP.
Clippings are really handy, having project and universal clippings are great, save effect changes, sounds, kits, fills, runs or whatever you think you want commonly.

I see chunks as being really useful for a variety of ways

  1. you can duplicate a sequence you are working on, and then you have a complete separate version you can try things on, copy stuff back to the first version if you want or whatever you want. Endless amounts of scratchpads to try things out.

  2. you can construct songs or parts from sequence chunks... Very useful, I haven't been able to do that very well since the old Opcode Vision days.

  3. If working on a theater show or a film score, you can keep separate chunks for each scene or cue...but all within the one project file, as you mentioned.

  4. you can create endless "idea" chunks to try out some idea without leaving the project in a separate isolated sequence...which you can easily copy into another sequence you are working on if you like, or just keep around. Save them as clippings if you want even, which then can be used in completely new project files very easily.

  5. V-Racks have the obvious advantage of being kind of like VePro where you don't have to reload instruments when switching cues, but when you are talking about building up songs from chunks, it becomes even more useful because all the parts of the song can share the same V-Rack. You can also use V-Racks for things like the master fader or various FX bus. You can create stems and submixes through a V-Rack and create different control room mixes there, etc.

  6. you can load V-Racks on demand from other projects or from clippings, so you can create ready made V-Racks holding one or more instruments each and then just load the V-Rack's into your project as needed to bring in custom multi instrument setups.

  7. Using V-Rack and Sequence chunks its easy to copy and try different mixes out, without losing the first mix...its still there in the project. With V-Racks you can have the entire mix in a V-Rack even if you want (excluding automation) so that a number of different songs or cues share the same basic mix.

  8. Likewise you could setup an ideal reverb, for example, in a V-Rack...then all the songs of your album or cues of your film, or parts of a song if using chunks to build songs...will share the same reverb settings...
 

kgdrum

Greetings
@Dewdman42
Yeah
RME and Pearl both think the issue is not TotalMix or or the Mimic Pro,I went over this with both companies.
I don’t have this problem in Logic so I think this is some sort of DP issue.
I also had a MOTU tech look at DP via TeamViewer and he thought everything was OK,although he might be wrong,I’m really not sure.
Hopefully I will figure this out relatively soon.
 

Dewdman42

Senior Member
Whatever problem you are having is unusual I don't know anyone else having the problem you are experiencing. DP is more complicated and probably there is something about your project that is not right...resulting in undesirable results.. I don't see it as being any kind of bug in the software. Its pilot error. If MOTU tech support couldn't figure it out with you that is weird, and maybe I won't be able to either..
 
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