Need some good medieval/renaissance "folk" instruments.

Discussion in 'SAMPLE Talk' started by kevthurman, Feb 11, 2019.

  1. Sid Francis

    Sid Francis Senior Member

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    Just went to your site, Avery: wow, very very professional music. And if I am not totally wrong the "plings and plongs" in "City by the Sea" are from ERA? :)
     
  2. Henu

    Henu Senior Member

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    Judging from Arkenstone's "official comment" on Tari's instruments I think it's safe to assure that he's using those in general, and that led me to do some quick comparisons between some libraries and his music on Cataclysm. There's at least Forest Kingdom and Shevannai all over it. ;)

    Then again, it just struck me that Cataclysm was released in 2011. Am I actually wrong with my comparisons? Argh, now I can't sleep until I find this out!!!
     
  3. Sid Francis

    Sid Francis Senior Member

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    Indeed Shevanai and Forest Kingdom are much softer in sound. I just did not buy them because I had a good arsenal of the offered instruments...
     
  4. averystemmler

    averystemmler Active Member

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    Thanks! The lute plongs are from Era, but the hammered plings are the cinesamples dulcimer. And I think spitfire's old free plucked dulcimer is in there somewhere too. And probably a bunch of other unnecessary layers.

    If you're curious, some clearer Era-centric examples are "Tusk and Steel" and "Smoke on the Mountaintops." It's been a few years, but everything except the orchestral strings and brass sections in both is Era, I believe. There might be an old EWSO cymbal sizzle or two in there.

    (Also sorry: I'd link them directly but I'm on my phone and I made questionable design decisions with this website)
     
  5. Wally Garten

    Wally Garten Active Member

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    I really like a lot of the perc and woods in Versilian Studios' VSCO2 for this kind of thing. Includes a family of recorders, a tin whistle, some other whistles, plus an assortment of hand percussion. There's even a multi called "Medieval Feast."
     
  6. Mark Schmieder

    Mark Schmieder Active Member

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    Although there are some great single-instrument libraries, and smaller compilations, for your purposes I think you would do well to start with one of Tarilonte's ERA products (e.g. Medieval Legends) as has already been mentioned. That will also give you a better idea of your expansion needs.

    My recollection is that these libs tend to go on sale just about this time each year, but as I already own them all, I haven't checked pricing recently (usually via Best Service). Sometimes there's a two-for-one sale on offer, and of course Dark ERA is coming real soon (and is on my list).
     
  7. JPQ

    JPQ Senior Member

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    One thig what i dont like Edvardo Tarilonte (i hope typed name correctly) libs you must hold keyswitches. i say this becouse this serous problem to me. at least earleir in libs hat i tested is this way.
     
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  8. TARI

    TARI Senior Member

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    Hi guys,
    First of all I have to say that I respect and understand all your comments, but after recording so many instruments I love the close mic for this kind of instruments. No other way to capture the real essence of them. From my point of view mid or far mics remove many nuances from the instruments and a good reverb can give what you need to recreate a hall.
    Noises: These instruments are very noisy and recording them with close mics is tricky. Recording far mics removes all those noises, that's the easiest way, but you miss the character. That's why I record them totally close and clean and add the noises separated. You can remove them or add them in the interface.
    Regarding the hold keyswitch: To me it is very useful. You always have the main articulation by default and you get other ornaments by holding the keyswitch. For example: You don't play any keyswitch and you get legato (main articulation). When you need an ornament just hold the keyswitch, get it, and once you release you get legato again. You don't have to press legato keyswitch again after every single articualtion change. I know many people love this way, but we are all different.
    Any question, feel free to ask :)
     
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  9. Jimmy Hellfire

    Jimmy Hellfire Senior Member

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    :thumbsup:
     
  10. Sid Francis

    Sid Francis Senior Member

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    Tari: funnily enough what I miss the most in all orchestral libraries is exactly your mic position :)
    By the way: I would not record your kind of ethnic instruments with a decca tree, that would not capture all the interesting aspects of the of the instruments, thats right. But an angled pair of cardioids 2m above the instruments gave me good details and a wonderfull and dry enough stereo panorama in my own recordings
     
  11. Consona

    Consona Senior Member

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    I see that in the opposite way. Sampling instruments too close actually does not capture the essence. We never hear instruments playing right in our ears, most of the time, we hear them in a hall, a big room, etc. It's the interaction with an environment that co-creates the sound of an instrument.

    Like I have Cinebrass, I tried to use close mic only with a reverb, but no matter what I do, that just cannot give me that cinematic Star Wars/Lord of the Rings/whatever sound I'm after. Yet all it takes to do get that sound is using Dennis Sands' mix, which is a combination of all the close and room positions. All those frequencies missing in the close sound are immediately there.

    I'm no sampling expert at all, so I don't know what difference does it make to put an instrument like 0,5 feet, or 1 or 2 feet, etc. from the microphone, but I have some Spitfire, Impact Soundworks or Auddict instruments that were recorded close, yet they have much fuller and mellower sound than ERA instruments, I really don't know why. Maybe it's because of microphones used, the distance? Dunno.

    People love ERA libraries, so it seems not many people actually have problem with the sound. But when I load like any of the ERA's plucked string instruments and then Spitfire dulcimer or Impact highland harps, the difference in the sound is very noticeable to me. Or Desert Winds' Duduk vs Efimov or CineWinds Duduk. DW duduk is the most playable thing ever, but the other ones have way more of that sweet mellow sound I can't get with DW duduk no matter what eq tricks or harmonic enhancers I use. It just sounds brittle in comparison.
    Or compare CineSamples' viola da gamba with ERA's one, the same thing again.

    Again, seems like most people don't have problems with this, so it's like me personal note, nothing more.

    Interesting thing is, I was listening to Ancient ERA Persia demos and the plucked string instruments sounded way better, to me, than those from ERA 1. But since I don't have that library, and can't play those instruments I can't comment more on whether that's really the case or not. But they definitely sounded fuller in those demos.

    And for example I'd really love to hear those war horns sampled by someone like CineSamples or Fluffy Audio, close, mid and far mics, just to compare that with ERA's war horns, since those are some of the intruments I think would benefit from a nice recording environment tremendously. (Or is the microphones used? I really don't know.)


    Anyway, people love ERAs, so you don't have to be concerted over what I write there. I think the price for all the stuff those libraries contain is amazing, I just like a different kind of sound. Still cannot wait to listen to Dark ERA demos, since maybe the instruments will sound more like those from Persia which I liked.
     
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  12. TARI

    TARI Senior Member

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    Well, stereo in a single instrument is not a good idea for a sample library. A small movement here and there from the player and you would get align and pan issues. I can hear them in many libraries out there. I guess everyone of us have a different way to do things :)
     
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  13. TARI

    TARI Senior Member

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    Dark Era recordings are killer!! believe me :)
     
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  14. Sid Francis

    Sid Francis Senior Member

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    Yes, for sampling it might be a bit different. And I know exactly what you mean mentioning the stereo jumping.
     
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  15. ptram

    ptram Senior Member

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    Held keyswitches can be useful when playing live or recording a live performance, but may be an issue when sequencing and using hidden controls. Not all articulation systems can manage this correctly, and require a dedicated switch to return to a particular articulation. It would be great to have an option on how the system works.

    Paolo
     
  16. TARI

    TARI Senior Member

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    There is no hidden control. If no key switch is pressed, just the main articulation sounds. Cannot think of an easiest way. What dedicated switch are you talking about? Maybe I am missing some info.
     
  17. Ben H

    Ben H Senior Member

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    I think he is suggesting some sort of switch/selector thingy on the GUI so that the user can decide the keyswitch behaviour, whether it is a held keyswitch or a sticky keysitch.
     
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  18. TARI

    TARI Senior Member

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    I see. I’ll try to implement that in future updates. Engine 3 will be able to handle that :)
     
  19. ptram

    ptram Senior Member

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    Sorry for not having been clearer. I was thinking to this: When recording keyswitches with the actual playing notes, keyswitches can be seen in the score.

    If using something like Expression Maps or Articulation IDs, you can't see the selection controls in the score. Controls are separate from the score.

    Expression Maps can be of two types: Attributes and Directions. Attributes are good for ornaments, because they only apply to a single note.

    Directions, that are useful for changes of playing style, like switching to pizz., are applied to all the following notes, up to the next Direction.

    Dorico, for example, can only use Directions, so it can't deal with 'held' keyswitches. The only way to use 'held' keyswitches is by entering the corresponding note in the score.

    Paolo
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2019
  20. Mark Schmieder

    Mark Schmieder Active Member

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    I always make a second track for the keyswitches, but I add them after initial note entry anyway, and as I mostly compose in my head, there's usually a mixture of played notes and scored. I decided years ago that writing from an instrument limits me to my playing ability and traps me into repetitive motifs that I've likely used before. But I still let myself to that now and then -- especially if it's a new physical instrument or sample library. During initial tracking, I just pick a safe neutral sustain non-legato patch, or something closer to portato, depending on the material.

    I have developed a strong preference for keyswitches over MIDI CC's for articulation-switching, due to higher precision of control and predictability. Once I mastered this technique with VSL, I was thrilled to see Chris Hein and others develop a similar approach. And for Tari's stuff, we also gain from his amazing use of the CC's for more important stuff that can't be done easily by other approaches, such as the nuances of middle eastern wind playing. I do that in real time from a MIDI controller.
     

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