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Mr Elfmans compositions question

dcoscina

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What is more funny is that others have said Bartek and Walker did a lot of the work because Elfman didn't have the formal academic or conservatory education. However neither Bartek nor Walker had that formal education which just rubbishes their whole premise.
Walker did have formal training but never got her degree. At least that's what I have read.
 

dcoscina

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I never heard that piece before. That is a beautiful one.
I think it's a loving ode to Herrmann. It works perfectly for the film too. The illusion of the sole music genius writing for film is just that; smoke and mirrors. Hollywood scores have always involved many people to get these films out. Elfman just got more grief because he was a rock guy and challenged the establishment. Clearly, he can score films. At this point, he's authored more than 100 film scores. His style remains consistent over the span of his career. If someone was ghostwriting for him, there would be less consistency.

Elfman in the late 80s and early 90s produced some truly outstanding scores (Batman, Edward Scissorhands, Dick Tracy, Nightmare before Xmas)
 
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Synthpopbean

Synthpopbean

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I think it's a loving ode to Herrmann. It works perfectly for the film too. The illusion of the sole music genius writing for film is just that; smoke and mirrors. Hollywood scores have always involved many people to get these films out. Elfman just got more grief because he was a rock guy and challenged the establishment. Clearly, he can score films. At this point, he's authored more than 100 film scores. His style remains consistent over the span of his career. If someone was ghostwriting for him, there would be less consistency.

Elfman in the late 80s and early 90s produced some truly outstanding scores (Batman, Edward Scissorhands, Dick Tracy, Nightmare before Xmas)
Yup. We get that now. Well, I get that now. And people back then seeing shame in composing on synth/sequencers and getting the orchestration part mixed up with the actual composing.
Which I assume many, then, mistook. Or consider those that can't orchestrate or conduct are not legit. That's bullshit to me. There should be no rules or regulations on ART.. or anyone to dictate what is and what isn't.
 

dcoscina

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Yup. We get that now. Well, I get that now. And people back then seeing shame in composing on synth/sequencers and getting the orchestration part mixed up with the actual composing.
Which I assume many, then, mistook. Or consider those that can't orchestrate or conduct are not legit. That's bullshit to me. There should be no rules or regulations on ART.. or anyone to dictate what is and what isn't.
Even trained composers need help due to the deadlines imposed on scoring a film. I remember a story that Goldsmith would slave over doing full orchestrated scores for his tv work and finally he gave in to the studio who said "jerry, we have people on staff who can orchestrate your work".

There are so many things that go into scoring a film that takes time. having orchestrators and copyists is necessary and has been since the advent of Hollywood studio filmmaking.
 
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Synthpopbean

Synthpopbean

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Even trained composers need help due to the deadlines imposed on scoring a film. I remember a story that Goldsmith would slave over doing full orchestrated scores for his tv work and finally he gave in to the studio who said "jerry, we have people on staff who can orchestrate your work".

There are so many things that go into scoring a film that takes time. having orchestrators and copyists is necessary and has been since the advent of Hollywood studio filmmaking.
I am now seeing just how intense and insane the soundtrack industry is. Sounds like a nightmare if anything. Definitely not something I would ever want to pursue or anywhere in the industry. Way too much drama and just....too much stress. Way too much stress.
 
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Synthpopbean

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E
I think it's a loving ode to Herrmann. It works perfectly for the film too. The illusion of the sole music genius writing for film is just that; smoke and mirrors. Hollywood scores have always involved many people to get these films out. Elfman just got more grief because he was a rock guy and challenged the establishment. Clearly, he can score films. At this point, he's authored more than 100 film scores. His style remains consistent over the span of his career. If someone was ghostwriting for him, there would be less consistency.

Elfman in the late 80s and early 90s produced some truly outstanding scores (Batman, Edward Scissorhands, Dick Tracy, Nightmare before Xmas)

I think it's a loving ode to Herrmann. It works perfectly for the film too. The illusion of the sole music genius writing for film is just that; smoke and mirrors. Hollywood scores have always involved many people to get these films out. Elfman just got more grief because he was a rock guy and challenged the establishment. Clearly, he can score films. At this point, he's authored more than 100 film scores. His style remains consistent over the span of his career. If someone was ghostwriting for him, there would be less consistency.

Elfman in the late 80s and early 90s produced some truly outstanding scores (Batman, Edward Scissorhands, Dick Tracy, Nightmare before Xmas)
Scissorhands and Nightmare are pure artistic beauty. Will forever be timeless.

Pee-Wee and Beetlejuice are very unique as well. Its like Oingo kind of, in their stylings.
 
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Synthpopbean

Synthpopbean

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I appreciate everyone's input and insights. I won't go on about it anymore. Think all that is to be said has been. Actually enjoy learning new stuff, too. Things I never really thought about before being a "normal". Most of us watch movies, have favorite scores, and never even know or think twice, about the craziness and intensity that goes on behind it.

And again, my thing wasn't about him using Bartek, Walker, and whoever to orchestrate. I was just wondering if people like that Verta guy were confusing two separate things (melodies vs orchestration that he sends off to Bartek and Walker) in their rumor mill hearsays. But that's been cleared up, too. Those Batman midi sessions mock ups are SO Danny and no denying that. He obviously wrote those melodies and arrangements. Really was cool hearing those!!!! And personally, I see nothing wrong with his process with Bartek and co. If those rumors went about then that wildly, then I assume stuff got more misconstrued second hand. He never denied he had their orchestration help.

I only brought this topic back up because I saw elsewhere completely unrelated this was mentioned again, and that supposedly Walker told them she wrote it then I searched something over here and then I saw here in the archives where that Verta guy and that other guy saying Shirley told them she wrote it (supposedly), and something on another forum about some other guy involved (don't remember, think it was about the Smalley guy) wrote some cue. So naturally I asked on here again, and wondering if all these rumors that he never even wrote the melodies and arrangements (like by Verta) were getting it mixed up with "orchestration". Apparently this subject gets brought up often on here not just by me? Ha! But wasn't that I was re-asking the same exact question. But it looked that way.
I was okay with the responses I had last time. Until all this supposedly "directly from Shirley" and other guy thing I read. That was all. Obviously those were confusing the two things (composing vs orchestration) or they were telling complete and utter bullcrap. Everyone's cleared it up. I am chill.

As for the other topic, he made it his own musical organism and articulately so and no harm. Fair game.

But keep discussion going if you want. About whatever.

Has anyone here heard his new solo rock/industrial album at all? Its mind-blowingly good. I'd actually like to see him continue more on that path for a while. Not that I don't love the movie scores, just we all miss his regular music.
 
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Synthpopbean

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Danny's new rock album. It is so so good.
There should be the full playlist when you click on the link.
 

NukillerMedia

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I'm still thinking people who bash him are getting the actual "coming up with the full melody and structure" with the orchestration part. I have no issue with the fact he uses orchestration help. He openly admits it! If the others secretly wrote the melodies and everything and he lied about that, then I'd find that sad and messed up, and that's what people keep accusing. People like that Verta guy that I read on here, anywhere, and fans who used to be Elfman fans that go after us current fans.
And yes, Bartek was also in Boingo with him..and supposedly only took like 1 class of orchestration. My whole original question, which was pretty much cleared up, was are people like Verta confusing the rumors, as in the orchestration part as in the actual "writing the full melodies" part.
there is essentially one melody in that score and permutations of it. Modern film scoring is essentially arranging very basic melodic blocks using a lexicon of already done musical devices that work for the film. scoring is not making melodies That sound super sweet.well, actually, around the time Hans Zimmer started, that was considered cool as the audience was completely unfamiliar with any classical music in any way.

but Melodie’s …. They have all been done. Scoring is putting music to picture and knowing what will and won’t work. Did elfman compose the minor 6 ? Does it matter. He had enough people around him to help him “ score “ it.

i doubt that anyone who hasn’t studied scores from the greats , i mean he couldn’t read bass clef for god sake, and understands the concept of how to use thematic blocks and manipulate them for a hour + work and render something that doesn’t sound like someone just riffing at a piano could pull off what the audience heard. That sort of help is hard to define and this is probably what verta is talking about. telling someome, hey , something great composers do is use the same motif but slightly different for another Doesn’t get you a recognized credit. Telling someone that using odd time signatures can help with action / chase scene as anything that will make someone nod their head in time is a sign your score broke the 4th wall, Unless that is your intent, doesn’t get a credit.

but that is the crux of the issue. having to explain to most people, most musicians what you did and what you had help with , I mean nobidy would understand and so it was either , yes, I wrote the music, or no. Those were his only choices.

anyways, working in that industry at that level for 2-3 years is pretty much a formative education in music and if he was completely unprepared going in, you don’t last as long as he did if you can’t deliver.
 
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