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Moving away from Ableton (or am I?)

ism

Senior Member
Hey,

I was a HUGE Ableton user (I worked on Metal Gear Solid V in Live) so its definitely possible.....it just doesn't make your life easy.

If you work primarily in musical sound design or hybrid music you will get a lot more from live but if you ever want to stray into orchestral mockups and 5.1 you are shit out of luck. It lacks even simple things like editing multiple midi clips at once (so if you have a section with 50 midi tracks stacked, you are gunna have to move those notes 50 fucking times xD)

If you want to score movies I really recommend trying something like Cubase, Logic, DP... something with great midi editing functions, score editors, dedicated mixing windows, 5.1 support etc. All of these things need workarounds in Ableton Live and you just have to ask yourself the question I did, is it worth the wasted time.

Cubase for me was the obvious choice because it was already up to a high standard in terms of the way I work with audio and it also had a function to create custom key commands, so I was able to change cubase commands to the ones I prefer from Ableton Live. It almost felt like Live sometimes xD

I see some people above pointing to all of the people who successfully use Live for movies, but from my own personal experience I wouldn't even want to anymore, I would waste so much time doing pointless shit that is just made easy for me in a DAW designed for writing music first and formost. If you look at ableton lives updates and new features, film composers are clearly not a focus.

So yeah you can stick to live if you want but trust me if you want to get into orchestral shit, the grass is most certainly greener on the otherside.... be that DP, Cubase, Logic. And just because someone has made it work doesn't mean it made their lives easy, just that they worked around its shortcomings and no doubt wasted a lot of time doing so. At least in my experience.

-DJ

Yes, and I’d add that it’s not just the work involved and the time saved, but functionality like ability to select and navigate multiple clips in Logic (for instance) let’s you visualize and think about what your composing in ways that I found very hard to get my head around in Live, much as I love it, and as much as I’d love Logic to have something comparable to the clip view.

live 10 offers improvements in midi workflow to be sure, which I hope will continue, but not nearly enough to go back yet.
 

kitekrazy

Senior Member
No offense but you better provide some proof of this statement (I'm considering "Live 10" in that quote as "Live 10 Standard"), at least the link to said discussion.

Somebody downgrading to Live 10 Standard from Live 9 Suite, having all their Live 9 Suite projects opening in "demo mode" (no saving or export), then having to upgrade to Live 10 Suite, will spend $69 extra or more that they didn't need to spend, plus unnecessary annoyances.



I did write myself in the first comment "Maybe Live is not "ideal" for movie scoring, but it sure won't stop you from being a successful composer."

Seems people are thinking I made claims of "superiority" or "use Live and you will be successful" by listing "famous" composers that use Live?

I thought the context was clear, mentioned by OP ("Live... ...an outlier in the orchestral world").

I just provided some evidence, with sources, that Live is not such an outlier anymore.


Also, DP is shown in the Göransson vid I posted myself, PT in the Reznor vid, not like I was trying to hide they use those other DAWs and portray them as "loyal Live fanbois" or whatever ("brenneisen" seems to imply I was trying to mischaracterize those composers).
You do come across as a fanboy. I'm not going to waste time providing any proof yada yada as I visit Live's forum everyday. If you had any previous version of Live Suite, there isn't really much added to justify $250 upgrade price. That goes back to when it was released. I'm not going to upgrade to Live 11 Suite.
I do believe the orchestra sounds are from Sonivox which can be had for cheap. Kontakt>>>>Sampler. Don't need another wave table synth. Max4Live takes time to learn it.
So if you wanna debate Live's Suite value or whatever this dog no longer hunts.
 

pottering

New Member
I'm not trying to convince you to do anything, I want to know if it is really true if a user that has Live 9 Suite and Live 10 Standard can load Live 9 Suite projects into Live 10 Standard, without Live 10 Standard getting into demo mode.

I thought that was not possible.
 

krops

Active Member
I can't verify whether or not you can still access Suite 9 content in Standard 10, but I don't find the upgrade price deterring. I like the software, I don't mind supporting the developers, and I use Suite content all the time. What's the upgrade price for you from 9 Suite to 10 Standard, then, @pottering ? (I can't see any upgrade prices until Live 11, I guess ;) A currency conversion shows me I paid about $220 (however that's based on today's currency) for the Suite 9 to Suite 10 upgrade.

For the record: here's a version comparison:

https://www.ableton.com/en/live/compare-editions/

Isotonik have a Max for Live pack that expands Live's MIDI editing capabilities greatly, but personally, I find it a little cumbersome to use, and I'd much rather see a natively beefed-up improvement.
 
OP
DerGeist

DerGeist

Active Member
The biggest problem for me with Ableton it that the track headers cannot be on the left side of the screen and makes it clunky . They really need to add customizable options to the daw .
Since I started on Ableton I'm so used to them being on the right I cant imagine them being anywhere else :)
 
OP
DerGeist

DerGeist

Active Member
Nicholas Britell got indicated for the Oscar 2 times and is a Live user.

https://www.fastcompany.com/90296560/lets-break-this-music-inside-composer-nicholas-britells-experimental-creative-process

Ludwig Göransson won the Oscar this year with Black Panther, here is an interview with him showing a track in Ableton Live (at 3:25)


Trent Reznor and Atticus Ross won the Oscar in 2010 with The Social Network, this NY Times interview states it was recorded entirely in Trent's home studio, in which the computer screen shows Ableton Live (at 2:48):


(It shows "electronic music" doesn't oppose "movie scoring".)

Jóhann Jóhannsson (RIP), Oscar-nominated 2 times

http://daily.redbullmusicacademy.com/2017/01/johann-johannsson-feature

Much like it happened in other music genres, Ableton Live went from being treated as a joke and having zero presence in movie scoring, to 2 of 5 composers nominated to the Oscar this year (including the winner) being Ableton Live users. Not saying this number will continue rising, but Live is demonstrably usable for movie or game scoring.

Maybe Live is not "ideal" for movie scoring, but it sure won't stop you from being a successful composer.
Great points. I think part of the "what ableton is good for" issue is related to how they market the product. When you watch their videos and read their press it is all focused on the clip view, loops, etc. This may be the source of the misconception that Live is not ideally suited for more traditional composition and tracking. I find Live is pretty good at through composed, non loop based, work. You would just never know it from the way they choose to present Live.

Off topic FWIW, I find it bizarre (and a bit annoying) that loop based clip work is somehow seen as modern and contemporary and through composed time based composition is somehow stogy and old fashioned. This isn't a judgment of the quality that comes out of either method but there is certainly value in both.
 

ism

Senior Member
I think it’s that with it excellent suport for clips, loops etc Live is great for the mental models at play when composing at this particular level of structure.

When composing orchestral music, I generally fine that I need build my mental models of what’s going on at slightly different levels of granularity. This is most obvious in selecting multiple track at the same time, so you can really see the vertical interaction of the harmonies, or how the melody wanders from the oboe to the clarinet to the cello.

Here I rely heavily on Logic’s midi functionality.

Then when moving up a level of granularity - at slightly larger levels granularity -repeating motifs, and working out the development of A - B - A structure, etc - here’s where I really miss Live.
 

paulmatthew

Senior Member
Since I started on Ableton I'm so used to them being on the right I cant imagine them being anywhere else :)
I know the feeling but when trying other DAWs it seems more natural and better laid out when it's on the left. There are a lot of things Ableton could change to improve the DAW . When the next update is released it will be better. There's some cool stuff added to the beta if you haven't tried it yet.
 

kitekrazy

Senior Member
I think it’s that with it excellent suport for clips, loops etc Live is great for the mental models at play when composing at this particular level of structure.

When composing orchestral music, I generally fine that I need build my mental models of what’s going on at slightly different levels of granularity. This is most obvious in selecting multiple track at the same time, so you can really see the vertical interaction of the harmonies, or how the melody wanders from the oboe to the clarinet to the cello.

Here I rely heavily on Logic’s midi functionality.

Then when moving up a level of granularity - at slightly larger levels granularity -repeating motifs, and working out the development of A - B - A structure, etc - here’s where I really miss Live.
It's hard for me to use a DAW known for pattern based music. Plus I need a staff view and a piano roll window .
 

JonSolo

Not Han's Brother
For the most part I cut my teeth in Cubase VST 32. When Reason came out I loved some of that style of workflow for certain things, and the fact that I could use ReWire was awesome. I have stayed with Cubase through the years, and have now moved to Nuendo.

When Ableton Live first hit, it was confusing to me. With later versions (after V7 specifically) I got into it a bit more. I ended up getting Push 2 eventually and recording an entire album with Live 9.5. As many have said, it does a lot of things really well.

I still do a variety of music and styles and projects that call for all sorts of things. While I have other DAWs such as FL Studio, and, arguably, Maschine, I gravitate toward Cubase/Nuendo.

Ableton and Reason have fantastic elements and workflow aspects that Cubase would benefit from. But in the end they feel clunky as a whole and what started out as inspiration can quickly become a dumbed-down mess.
 

Daniel James

Senior Member
I actually never saw you state that so directly, you always make such a big deal of being a "Live user" before starting praising Cubase.

In retrospect, I see you were careful to say you were "HUGE Ableton user", "user" not "fan".
I think you are overthinking things mate. I was a total Live fanboy for the longest time. I knew it inside and out so it was always faster for me to write in live than to swap over. But I hit a 'speed ceiling' with it, and once I got the chance to learn Cubase, I did. And I am now just as fast, if not faster, than I was with Live but with the added bonus of more features I can take advantage of as a composer for films and games.

Its all a subjective thing in the end anyways, so don't take every negative stance about Live as an attack on you. I have been there before and trust me its a waste of time and effort. You can do great things with any DAW, but some are better at some things than others. That doesn't mean you are dumb or anything like that for sticking with it, just you have a different focus for your music. So don't let any of this get to you, everythings good.... we are writing music at the end of the day which has the sole purpose of bringing joy to peoples lives. Don't do what I did and start drawing battle lines and digging trenches. Its just not worth it.

Have fun man :)

-DJ
 

ProfoundSilence

Senior Member
I wish I could heart your post Daniel.

Personally, I'm a Cubase user - but from time to time I like the look of logic(but hate macOS). Reaper is looking better and better to me, but it's intimidating. One day I'll try to learn reaper(maybe on a mobile rig?) because it's simply fascinating to me, but the moral of the story is to use the tool that gets the job done.

It's not a "fan" thing - it's a user thing. The second Cubase doesn't do what I need it to do, I'll be moving onto the next one, which is *exactly* why I switched to Cubase in the first place. Daniel is simply stating he was a huge live user because it's an easy way of letting you know before hand - that the reason he doesn't use it is not a lack of skill or knowledge on how to use it.
 
I think you are overthinking things mate. I was a total Live fanboy for the longest time. I knew it inside and out so it was always faster for me to write in live than to swap over. But I hit a 'speed ceiling' with it, and once I got the chance to learn Cubase, I did. And I am now just as fast, if not faster, than I was with Live but with the added bonus of more features I can take advantage of as a composer for films and games.

Its all a subjective thing in the end anyways, so don't take every negative stance about Live as an attack on you. I have been there before and trust me its a waste of time and effort. You can do great things with any DAW, but some are better at some things than others. That doesn't mean you are dumb or anything like that for sticking with it, just you have a different focus for your music. So don't let any of this get to you, everythings good.... we are writing music at the end of the day which has the sole purpose of bringing joy to peoples lives. Don't do what I did and start drawing battle lines and digging trenches. Its just not worth it.

Have fun man :)

-DJ
Hi all!
I think DJ has right in a number of points but i 'll do some explanations. Yes ableton is not aimed at composers but more for electronic users. But you can do all the things you want with it like any other DAW. The fact is that any DAW have particulars features. And it feats or not with your needs. The all things is to know is where you have to make compromise.
For my case, i'm an Ableton user and i do film music and trailer music. but i'm not a professionnal. I'm hobbyist. I tried many time to use Cubase for example, because i saw professionnals like DJ, Jason Graves, Junkie XL, etc... use it, but i can't understand this software! For me Ableton is much more faster, i can materialize my ideas quickly and i can do what i want. And i understand this software, for me it is clear like water. I love also the simplicity of in board devices and the possibility of max for live. I love also the simplicity to connect hardware stuff and synchronize them with Live.
Then what? Yes it lacks midi feature, and some editing is very boring when you compare it to cubase or Logic. But for me who's not a professionnal, i have time for that! So i prefer loosing some time for editing, but i refuse to be "frustated" in loosing time for materialize ideas. This is my decision, and i like it lol!
That's why i understand totally DJ when he said "Cubase make my life easier". It suits him well for his professionnal purpose, that all, no need more argue.

[QUOTE="
Have fun man :)

-DJ[/QUOTE]

Yes DJ you're right! Fun is to make music, not to fight each other on what DAW to use!
You're Great Man :)
 
You do come across as a fanboy. I'm not going to waste time providing any proof yada yada as I visit Live's forum everyday. If you had any previous version of Live Suite, there isn't really much added to justify $250 upgrade price. That goes back to when it was released. I'm not going to upgrade to Live 11 Suite.
I do believe the orchestra sounds are from Sonivox which can be had for cheap. Kontakt>>>>Sampler. Don't need another wave table synth. Max4Live takes time to learn it.
So if you wanna debate Live's Suite value or whatever this dog no longer hunts.
Hi,
i don't want to angry the debate here, but i'm not agree with you.
I think the price of the upgrade is pretty fair when you saw the content. I will not enumerate all the things you ve got with Live 10, but just the Ableton wavetable synth justify the price in my opinion. Any other wavetable vst synth is sold between 100 - 200 $. Ok you probably already have Serum or other stuff and wavetable comes in little late, but here it is, and it do the job.
Futhermore there are plently of new devices in this upgrade, and when i saw that an upgrade from cubase cost 100$ every year, and an upgrade of Ableton cost 250$ per 5 years, i don't think the price is overpricy.
It is not the top price policy, FL studio and Reaper are the best (lifetime free updates), but it's fair.
I'm not a fanboy, just my economical thoughts!

Perhaps this is not the content that all Live users want to be, but it's another debate.
Cheers :thumbsup:
 

Geoff Grace

Senior Member
As MOTU has added a Clips feature in DP10, it might be a good option to look at for Live users who are considering changing DAWs:


Best,

Geoff
 
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kitekrazy

Senior Member
Hi,
i don't want to angry the debate here, but i'm not agree with you.
I think the price of the upgrade is pretty fair when you saw the content. I will not enumerate all the things you ve got with Live 10, but just the Ableton wavetable synth justify the price in my opinion. Any other wavetable vst synth is sold between 100 - 200 $. Ok you probably already have Serum or other stuff and wavetable comes in little late, but here it is, and it do the job.
Futhermore there are plently of new devices in this upgrade, and when i saw that an upgrade from cubase cost 100$ every year, and an upgrade of Ableton cost 250$ per 5 years, i don't think the price is overpricy.
It is not the top price policy, FL studio and Reaper are the best (lifetime free updates), but it's fair.
I'm not a fanboy, just my economical thoughts!

Perhaps this is not the content that all Live users want to be, but it's another debate.
Cheers :thumbsup:
LOL. I have 2 license of 8 Suite, 2 licenses of 9 Suite, 1 license of 10 Suite. I've already stated my decision. I pretty much have anything that is better than what is in the Suite. The length of time between versions is a lame argument because developers are not consistent i release dates. So let's say my Reason upgrade was $80 over 3 years. I even got Europa VST for free. I read that yada yada on Lives forum by using a timeline to justify the original $299 upgrade price for Suite. I got my upgrade via Sweetwater paying 2-3 years with no interest.


There is a long thread in The Lounge about the Suite upgrade price. Most don't like it. One member stated no need for most of the stuff since it's covered by 3rd party. That's why I wont do the Suite anymore. It's also proprietary stuff.

Live Suite for the 1st time user is $750. Maybe a Guitar Center employee could convince one to spend that kind of change on a DAW. Using your developer timeline if Live 11 is released in 2 years and an upgrade sale is $250 = $125 a year. So that person will fork out $1000. Almost smell likes Bitwig.

Fanboys and economic thoughts are not always logical. I don't need the Suite anymore unless the price is tempting. In my perfect world there would never be a Live Suite and you can buy those proprietary add ons.

BTW see DJ's post. Stop digging trenches.
 
OP
DerGeist

DerGeist

Active Member
Hi,
i don't want to angry the debate here, but i'm not agree with you.
I think the price of the upgrade is pretty fair when you saw the content. I will not enumerate all the things you ve got with Live 10, but just the Ableton wavetable synth justify the price in my opinion. Any other wavetable vst synth is sold between 100 - 200 $. Ok you probably already have Serum or other stuff and wavetable comes in little late, but here it is, and it do the job.
Futhermore there are plently of new devices in this upgrade, and when i saw that an upgrade from cubase cost 100$ every year, and an upgrade of Ableton cost 250$ per 5 years, i don't think the price is overpricy.
It is not the top price policy, FL studio and Reaper are the best (lifetime free updates), but it's fair.
I'm not a fanboy, just my economical thoughts!

Perhaps this is not the content that all Live users want to be, but it's another debate.
Cheers :thumbsup:
I thought being able to rename inputs was worth the price of the upgrade, not to mention midi multi-edit.
 
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