Midi CC + Normal Faders + Artist Mix + Cubase

Discussion in 'Your DAW (Digital Audio Workstation)' started by colony nofi, Jan 10, 2019.

  1. colony nofi

    colony nofi Active Member

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    Jul 19, 2012
    I can hear @Guy Rowland gearing up to reply already... but I think maybe I've got a unique question that hasn't yet been answered.

    Riddle me this clever people.

    I quite like the Avid Artist Mix. I especially like being able to have my sync, temp music, my music on 3 faders locked. And a fourth fader as the currently selected track in cubase (well, nuendo actually, but given tonnes more people are on cubase, lets run with that!) .

    That leaves me 4 more faders. Now, with QC's one can assign midi CC's, but this requires a number of button presses on the euphonix to bring the CC's onto the faders, and it also flips the faders of the locked tracks up onto the pan pots. When working fast, it is not a great workflow (for me!)

    I'm personally not a fan of midi CC data as automation lanes - I can live with it, but I'm thinking of another way.

    What I'm looking for is the option of turning the motors OFF for the first 4 faders of the artist mix, and somehow using MAXMSP / Bidule / Bome Midi Translator to convert the signal to just plain ol midi CC like comes off the faders on things like Korg Nano controls etc.

    I'm hoping to get the first (or last) 4 faders to be set to specific Midi CC's (the usual!) and the last 4 remain as my normal (motorized) faders. That way even though the midi faders are not motorized, they are always ready as CC faders - and don't need to use the automation lane. Sure, I lose the motorized function, but I can live with this. (I live with it already using palette gear faders (sadly giving up) as well as faders on an A-800 (but its off to my side and not ideal ergonomically!)

    Yes - I want ALMOST the whole world but not quite ;)

    I've seen hints around that it is possible, but never found the solution. I might start playing myself, but I'd love to be pointed in a direction at least first... I wish I had more time to play with these things.

    Thoughts???
     
  2. Gerhard Westphalen

    Gerhard Westphalen Scoring Mixer

    This is what Trevor Morris does with his S3. I believe with Bidule. I do something similar with my Faderport when I need CCs.

    The only way I know of is to have Eucon read the other application as a Mackie Control emulation. From there, you can split the faders between the 2 programs however you want. The challenge is to then convert the Mackie Control messages in to CCs. I believe it uses pitch bend or some other wacky thing for the faders. Would probably be easier in Max. I could potentially help develop something like that with Max and test on my S3 (which should be the same as the artist mix).
     
  3. Guy Rowland

    Guy Rowland Senior Member

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    Dec 13, 2012
    Did somebody call? Funny the things you get an unexpected reputation for... but in this case....

    You're quite right colony, this isn't something I've met before and it sounds like Gerhard has a much clearer understanding of a way to do it that I do. Good luck, let us know if you ever make it work!
     
  4. OP
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    colony nofi

    colony nofi Active Member

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    Jul 19, 2012
    Oh I think I get it @Gerhard Westphalen! I do a fair bit in max... so that’ll be my first port of call. Happy to share back and forth any knowledge we figure out on this one. I can at least envision how all the pieces need to fit together. That’s a start right?

    And guy - you just kept popping up in all - er I dunno - hundreds? of threads ive gone thru about this :). Your solution for getting the motorised faders working as cc faders is awesome. I’m just a workflow nut and want to at least try and make it work a little better for me :)
     
  5. OLB

    OLB Member

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    Oct 24, 2007
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    Hi all, I might be able to help with another step.

    I have the Artist Control and managed to use it as a midi controller using Plogue Bidule. So basically converting the faders into midi cc messages into the DAW.

    You have to use the Avid Artist as a workstation and use it with the Mackie Control protocol.
    In Plogue Bidule it will appear as the 'Euphonix Port 1 Euphonix Control Surface' port.

    Then with some filtering and message remapping you can assign the faders to any CC and then send it to the midi input of your DAW.

    [​IMG]
    I'd have to think about the split you're talking about but this might help us a bit further!
    Here is the Plogue Bidule file for anyone interested: link

    When I have a bit of time I can dig a bit deeper but if anyone else could that'd be amazing!
     
    Dewdman42, colony nofi and brenneisen like this.
  6. OP
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    colony nofi

    colony nofi Active Member

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    Jul 19, 2012
    Oh nice. I've only ever fiddled in Bidule (I just happen to have dipped in and out of max for many years, so feel more comfortable there.) . However - this info is very useful.
     
  7. Gerhard Westphalen

    Gerhard Westphalen Scoring Mixer

    It's really just a matter of monitoring what it's sending and then converting that. The only thing I'm not sure of is if Mackie emulation has some sort of "pinging" it does to check that it's still connected properly. I know some systems do and will stop working if they don't hear back from the host.

    In my case with the Faderport it was a little more complicated because I had to switch "mode" (native Faderport operation and midi CC) so I had to have both modes routing through Max (which you don't need with Eucon since you just split which faders go where) and then I was using the buttons on the Faderport to switch between different CCs. An additional challenge was to make it so that when you switch to a different CC, the fader jumps back to the last position that you had that CC at which is great if you're writing multiple CCs in a single pass so it doesn't cause a jump in the written data.
     
  8. OP
    OP
    colony nofi

    colony nofi Active Member

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    Jul 19, 2012
    I mean, that right there is the holy grail.... who knows if I'll get that far. But damned if I'm not going to try...
    :)
     
  9. OP
    OP
    colony nofi

    colony nofi Active Member

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    Jul 19, 2012
    I think I've hit a big hurdle already. It seems things are all or nothing regarding the faders on the artist mix. So - there's no way I can see of separating out say the first 4 faders for eucon and the last 4 for mackie control on another piece of software which could do the midi-transposing. I can def see how once in mackie control I could make all 8 faders into midi CC's - but that kinda defeats the purpose of being a workflow help. Hm

    But that makes me wonder as to how Trevor Morris does indeed make this trick happen with the S3....
     
  10. OP
    OP
    colony nofi

    colony nofi Active Member

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    Jul 19, 2012
    @Gerhard Westphalen
    When you say you split off the faders in another piece of software (bidule / max etc) - this basically means then that the faders become mackie control faders right?
    I'm not sure - and need to test - but I think this would maybe not allow my setup to work... but I'd love to hear your thoughts.

    The ultimate aim is
    Fader 1 thru 4 - midi CC's. The usual CC1, CC11 etc :)
    Fader 5,6,7 - Temp Production Audio (or premixes from the sound dept), Temp Music, My music level. Fader 8 becomes the fader that corresponds to whatever channel I have selected in nuendo for doing my automation moves.

    I'm even willing to get a Platform M+ in if it might be easier to pull this off. But being in Aust, its hard to convince a music shop to get one in and accept it on return if it doesn't work...

    Anyway - I'm also fast running out of time / needing to get going on actually "composing" - ha - but do want to try at least and figure out what is / should be possible and what isn't. And maybe even then even try find someone to help if my knowledge / time runs out.
     
  11. OP
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    colony nofi

    colony nofi Active Member

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    Jul 19, 2012
    So - progress. 3 steps forward, 2 back - but getting there.

    After re-reading a bunch of stuff, and just trying a bunch of stuff I've found the following.

    I CANNOT get the artist mix to run in hui or mackie control mode for nuendo 8 on my mac. At all. Nothing I've tried - all the hints on forums - nothing has worked. Eucon however works fine for normal nuendo control. What does this mean? Well - as far as I can tell, all chances of getting motorized CC control rest on being able to jump into the middle of the connection - and I certainly cant do that with eucon, but I suspect I might be able to with mackie control or hui modes.

    I CAN get most of what I want to do working with eucon.

    I've achieved the following.

    4 faders being midi CC controllers (non motorized) and the other 4 controlling 3 fixed (group) tracks and 1 "focus" track in nuendo.

    Setup the artist mix to work for Eucon and Nuendo/Cubase. This hopefully shouldn't be too hard.
    Install Bome Midi Translator
    Now for each midi CC you want control over :
    Add a dummy midi track in nuendo
    Set it to OUTPUT on BOME virtual midi port - with each CC having its own midi channel.
    Setup BOME to listen for CC7 on the midi channel from the last step. (EACH fader needs its own midi channel)
    Then just transorm CC7 to CCn where n is the CC number you want. So - CC1 for mod. If you have trouble with BOME I can make some screengrabs - but 30mins of reading manuals and playing got that part working for me.
    Send the new CC back on BOME virtual midi port.
    Then just make sure your instrument / midi tracks that you want to control listen to all ports. You *could* combine your other controllers and this new control into one port in Bome, but I found it completely unnecessary.
    Inside EUCON set a fader to the dummy midi fader in nuendo. It should now control the dummy track in nuendo, send the level as CC7 back to BOME, which translates it to the CC you want, and lets it be used on instrument tracks.

    It's important not to record onto the dummy tracks, nor add any automation data.

    Hm. Reading back my instructions - I may not be very clear. If I get the time, and if anyone actually wants it, its probably easier to do it with a series of screen shots. Just not right now :)

    Hope this helps someone. I do sort of want to keep going with this - to see if I can get it automated. I get the feeling maybe the Platform M using Mackie Control *could* do all this PLUS give motorised Midi CC... but it depends on how well the mackie control protocol works for the rest of nuendo (can you lock tracks / can you make attention tracks etc. I cannot find that info anywhere)

    Cheers!
     
  12. OP
    OP
    colony nofi

    colony nofi Active Member

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    Jul 19, 2012
    Thanks so much for this! I'd love to try some of this (I suspect either max or BOME will be cool to do what you have done with Bidule... but not sure.)
    Just looking at your setup - this doesn't allow motorized control does it?
    I'm also unsure what you mean by "Workstation mode" for eucon. Maybe this is why I can't get my mix to work with cubase in mackie mode as well. I've just been following the setup guide for other mackie control type scenarios - it doesn't make any mention of this??? Any help appreciated.
     
  13. OLB

    OLB Member

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    Oct 24, 2007
    London
    I don't have the faders in motorised mode indeed. But it might work with some more tweaking...

    So to make Mackie Control mode work for Mac. Have a look at this guy's video from around 8 mins in:
    He's using the HUI port but you can select Mackie Control mode. Basically you have to drag your application (Plogue Bidule in my case) into that EUCON window.

    This guy explains it quickly for Windows:

    You have to restart but after that you can access the midi ports to extract the midi messages and transform them into CCs.

    Let me know how you get on!
     
  14. Gerhard Westphalen

    Gerhard Westphalen Scoring Mixer

    It looks like I was wrong in thinking that it can be split with half in Eucon and half in Mackie. They say "You can even lock parts of the surface to one app while using the rest to switch between apps—perfect for monitor and transport controls." but I think by that they just mean locking the transport section. I could've sworn someone mentioned an S6 being able to control multiple Pro Tools rigs at the same time but looking through the manual, I don't see anything about that.

    So I think that Trevor Morris just runs it all in Mackie and then splits the Mackie with half going into his Pro Tools rig and the other half for CC. So you'd loose all of the normal Eucon features like going to the selected track. Still not 100% sure this is what Trevor is doing but you can see it on his video with Spitfire.
     
  15. OP
    OP
    colony nofi

    colony nofi Active Member

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    Jul 19, 2012
    I couldn't see ANY automation on the last 8 faders through his different videos... so I'm thinking they might just be non-motorized.

    Which is exactly what I've got working quite simply really with the Artist Mix in Eucon mode, + BOME + dummy midi tracks in Nuendo/Cubase to help with routing.

    However, I really *should* be pleased since I've managed to get working what I set out to do.
    Now I just want more....ha! Or - at least some kind of info being sent back to the artist mix so the last used control number is sent thru to the board when you select that track to edit. I have ideas, but unless I get Mackie mode working, I don't think it will be possible.

    Yeah - this is exactly what I've gone thru, and it just doesn't work. I've been on avid forums (and others) and it seems LOADS of people are having trouble with Mackie/HUI modes with the current software. At least I'm not the only one.
    But there isn't any known solution right now.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2019 at 3:16 PM
  16. Gerhard Westphalen

    Gerhard Westphalen Scoring Mixer

    You can't motorize CC faders unless you're writing it as automation.
     
  17. OP
    OP
    colony nofi

    colony nofi Active Member

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    Jul 19, 2012
    Yeah I gathered. I was just trying *one last idea* (ha!)
    And using automation tracks only works with the fader "flip" trick on the artist mix, where as the method I have going allows (non-motorized cc) control via eucon, keeping some faders motorized for normal channel operations.
    Anyway - happy to get the functionality that I now have. It really was much simpler than I imagined.
     

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