Martin Scorsese: I Said Marvel Movies Aren’t Cinema. Let Me Explain. (NYT)

LowweeK

Monkeying with libraries
I only went to Scorsese's place once in my life long ago, when I was in my twenties.
Wait wait wait, you mean that you're NOT actually a frog ???

ONCE UPON A TIME IN AMERICA. Ha, this movie breaks me. He's on my top 3 list. And the music, the music...

Speaking of art vs mass culture vs pop culture, I see a director who breaks all barriers : MIYAZAKI Hayao. (Personally, his movies are heart-breaking).

His long time buddy TAKAHATA Isao was a genius too.
When you look at BBCSO taking all RAM on your PC, you can either pick "Grave of The Fireflies" (to see what true despair is) or "Pompoko" (to cheer up).
 

TigerTheFrog

Froganthropist
Wait wait wait, you mean that you're NOT actually a frog ???

ONCE UPON A TIME IN AMERICA. Ha, this movie breaks me. He's on my top 3 list. And the music, the music...

Speaking of art vs mass culture vs pop culture, I see a director who breaks all barriers : MIYAZAKI Hayao. (Personally, his movies are heart-breaking).

His long time buddy TAKAHATA Isao was a genius too.
When you look at BBCSO taking all RAM on your PC, you can either pick "Grave of The Fireflies" (to see what true despair is) or "Pompoko" (to cheer up).
You might be happy to hear that WarnerMedia bought all the Studio Ghibli movies for their new HBO MAX streaming channel. Those films have been out of streaming circulation for a while.

PS Of course I'm a frog. Scorsese is not a speciesist.
 

Pier Bover

Active Member
And if you’re going to tell me that it’s simply a matter of supply and demand and giving the people what they want, I’m going to disagree. It’s a chicken-and-egg issue. If people are given only one kind of thing and endlessly sold only one kind of thing, of course they’re going to want more of that one kind of thing.
It's exactly a matter of supply and demand. The majority of people that want to go to the theater prefer to watch entertainment instead of art. Scorsese argues that consumers prefer entertainment because they have no choice, but consumers have been choosing for decades with their wallets.

Personally I generally enjoy Marvel movies, I even love a couple of those and own them in 4K Bluray, but it's clear to me these are not art.
 

Jimmy Hellfire

Senior Member
It's exactly a matter of supply and demand. The majority of people that want to go to the theater prefer to watch entertainment instead of art. Scorsese argues that consumers prefer entertainment because they have no choice, but consumers have been choosing for decades with their wallets.
From my experience, people will go to see whatever there is to see at a given moment - or more precisely, what they were told that they're supposed to want to see. That's a big factor. I know several people who went to see that last big Marvel movie (whatever it's called) - you know, the one that's so awesome and everyone needed to see - not because they're particularly into Marvel, or superheroes in general, but because that was the movie to watch at that time. That's how that works.

The whole "supply and demand" is a funny little thing, because it's always misunderstood. The demand and supply are created from the same source, that's the trick.
 

GtrString

Active Member
I think it’s a zeitgeist thing also.. when the world feels dark and heavy, people want entertainment, and when the world feels nice and light, they want art to give it more depth.

The geist right now is pretty dark, imo.
 

Pier Bover

Active Member
From my experience, people will go to see whatever there is to see at a given moment - or more precisely, what they were told that they're supposed to want to see. That's a big factor. I know several people who went to see that last big Marvel movie (whatever it's called) - you know, the one that's so awesome and everyone needed to see - not because they're particularly into Marvel, or superheroes in general, but because that was the movie to watch at that time. That's how that works.

The whole "supply and demand" is a funny little thing, because it's always misunderstood. The demand and supply are created from the same source, that's the trick.
Some people do want to see what's popular (or what is announced as popular) but I doubt this is actually the majority.
 

Jimmy Hellfire

Senior Member
Some people do want to see what's popular (or what is announced as popular) but I doubt this is actually the majority.
It doesn't happen consciously. It's just how it works. You don't ask people what they need. You give them choices so they can pick one - provide the idea of agency. That's why the most powerful thing in capitalism is marketing. It's all about creating needs and demands to exploit. I'm not saying this is categorically bad, but that's how it works. You let people know that the flavor of the decade is Marvel, and Marvel they want.
 

Markus Kohlprath

Active Member
OMG! So much ESSENTIAL INFO in these lines! Thank you so much for such pro insights even if it does feel like a cold shower in the middle of winter...
This is really interesting. I always wondered why I never and I literally mean it never found a film I searched in netflix because of my interest, be it because of the score or a particular style. If you want to watch the films that morricone scored and study his development a netflix abo doesn’t help at all. You can only watch what is suggested by them or what is talked about somewhere. Not that it’s not entertaining or always bad quality but I feel completely dependent on what they want or do not want you to offer.
 

chocobitz825

Senior Member
This is really interesting. I always wondered why I never and I literally mean it never found a film I searched in netflix because of my interest, be it because of the score or a particular style. If you want to watch the films that morricone scored and study his development a netflix abo doesn’t help at all. You can only watch what is suggested by them or what is talked about somewhere. Not that it’s not entertaining or always bad quality but I feel completely dependent on what they want or do not want you to offer.
So I just tried to sign up for Criterion Channel and found out it's not available in my region of Japan. I think people forget that this is part of the reason why Netflix had to move away from Hollywood films and start putting out its own content. Its a surface available around the world and not being able to provide the same content across different regions is a mess. Hulu in Japan is terrible. It has practically nothing that American Hulu provides and mostly ends up with a patchwork of local stuff from one network alone, and some random BBC and HBO content. The globalization of content is a major factor in the decisions of these big businesses. Guess in the meantime ill have to search elsewhere for classic film.
 

Consona

Senior Member
WOW...SOME of you guys need to really get out of this forum (and off your HIGH HORSE) and actually listen to the millions of people around the globe that love MCU movies (23 in 10 years making over $20+ Billion).
:grin:

Speaking for myself, I saw nearly every MCU film at the cinema. And I thought MCU was heavily over-rated nearly a decade before Scorsese's comments. I don't care how many people love MCU and how much money those films made. Those things don't constitute my enjoyment and experience of the films and people should stop using these non-arguments when speaking about the quality of those films (it's used over and over again everywhere I go).

I don't agree with Scorsese that MCU is not cinema, I agree that it's a theme park franchise. I disagree about Copolla's MCU films are despicable, but they are not exceptional either.

Just go to youtube and watch average GROWN ADULTS reviewing Avengers Endgame for example. Watch an overwhelming amount of them get emotional about the characters and what happens to them. Watch them cry and tell me these movies haven't had an impact and don't matter or are not CINEMA. Perhaps its YOU that doesn't know what CINEMA is. I mean these are the folks paying good money to go see these movies.
People cried when Stalin died. (What a counter-argument, jeez. :laugh:) People cry when watching football... or some b-movie romantic comedy or a telenovela or, whatever, again, not a measure of anything.

You know what's a fricking filmmaking feat? Not making you cry after seeing a character dying after spending 11 years with him, but Jackson making me cry when some nobody anonymous barely visible guys are lighting the beacons in The Two Towers! :thumbsup: That's something amazing.

And that is why you make movies RIGHT, for REAL Average people to see them RIGHT?
If you are Disney... It's basically their company motto.

So glad people like Nolan or Snyder exist, who don't aim at average. (Plus it's not only the average, but Disney must also appease and satisfy big different culture markets like China.)

They disneyfied the Marvel comics characters for MCU. Then they disneyfied some of those disneyfied versions again in Ragnarok and again in Endgame. :rolleyes: I prefer Fox X-men Marvel characters to MCU Marvel characters. And films as well, Days of Future Past, Logan or Deadpool 2 were better than anything from MCU. So bad Disney's bought Fox. Another standardization and disneyfication ahead.

Also, Many of them adore the SOUNDTRACK made by SILVESTRI and the emotions he helped evoke during certain SCENES in the movies. He has scored more than one MCU movie and SILVESTRI is not a HACK. YES he was paid but I don't think he was EMBARASSED to SCORE these movies.
He also scored My Stepmother is an Alien.



*ba dum tsss*


I don't think anybody accused him of being a HACK...
 

Eric G

Member
:grin:

Speaking for myself, I saw nearly every MCU film at the cinema. And I thought MCU was heavily over-rated nearly a decade before Scorsese's comments. I don't care how many people love MCU and how much money those films made. Those things don't constitute my enjoyment and experience of the films and people should stop using these non-arguments when speaking about the quality of those films (it's used over and over again everywhere I go).

I don't agree with Scorsese that MCU is not cinema, I agree that it's a theme park franchise. I disagree about Copolla's MCU films are despicable, but they are not exceptional either.


People cried when Stalin died. (What a counter-argument, jeez. :laugh:) People cry when watching football... or some b-movie romantic comedy or a telenovela or, whatever, again, not a measure of anything.

You know what's a fricking filmmaking feat? Not making you cry after seeing a character dying after spending 11 years with him, but Jackson making me cry when some nobody anonymous barely visible guys are lighting the beacons in The Two Towers! :thumbsup: That's something amazing.


If you are Disney... It's basically their company motto.

So glad people like Nolan or Snyder exist, who don't aim at average. (Plus it's not only the average, but Disney must also appease and satisfy big different culture markets like China.)

They disneyfied the Marvel comics characters for MCU. Then they disneyfied some of those disneyfied versions again in Ragnarok and again in Endgame. :rolleyes: I prefer Fox X-men Marvel characters to MCU Marvel characters. And films as well, Days of Future Past, Logan or Deadpool 2 were better than anything from MCU. So bad Disney's bought Fox. Another standardization and disneyfication ahead.


He also scored My Stepmother is an Alien.



*ba dum tsss*


I don't think anybody accused him of being a HACK...
I was entertained by your response (I mean every YAHOO has their own OPINION Right?) up to the point when you said you preferred the Fox X-Men and that Snyder made above average films.You have disqualified yourself from any further serious thought.
 

Bollen

Vintage Member
I have always believed those who love and care for "art" are the ones that keep it alive and pass it on from generation to generation. True, things cost money, but at the same time I am enjoying more of the "content" I like than ever before in my forty...(cough!) years of life. I would've killed to have YouTube when I was in my study years, I have never had access to so many avant-garde composers and concerts. And for my "arty" films, since they shut down LoveFilm, the pirate sites seem to have an ever expanding catalogue of the classics... :whistling:!

Life always find a balance and I am yet to see an algorithm on anything, from shopping to music & films, to understands my taste at all!
 

chocobitz825

Senior Member
I'd just have to wonder about fully grown ass adults going to superhero movies..
yeah!! As ridiculous as those crazy adults going to see Star Wars. That movie series has been, and will always be, for kids.

grow up! Right?

Although...if no adults go and see those films...that means there are tons of theaters filled with unattended minors watching violent fantasy films.......
 

TigerTheFrog

Froganthropist
Why don't we let Werner Herzog chime in on whether blockbuster movies are truly cinema?

"It's all cinema. Let's face it. I love both sides of the fence."

Warning: there are spoilers to "The Mandalorian" in the linked article.

 

Bollen

Vintage Member
Why don't we let Werner Herzog chime in on whether blockbuster movies are truly cinema?

"It's all cinema. Let's face it. I love both sides of the fence."

Warning: there are spoilers to "The Mandalorian" in the linked article.

I've never been interested in Star Wars, but now that Werner is involved well... I'm just gonna have to watch it!
 

Mike Fox

Senior Member
I'd just have to wonder about fully grown ass adults going to superhero movies..
I grew up reading X-Men comics. I was a die hard fan. Truthfully, it was an escape from my dysfunctional home life (i had an abusive step-father and a mentally unstable mother). X-Men comics were my escape from that reality, and i think it really prevented me from going down some dark paths, as silly as that may sound.

That was a long time ago, but I'll always have a certain soft spot for that franchise. I've seen just about every X-Men film in theaters, and will continue to do so.