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Lyrical string libraries.

Batrawi

Active Member
This is only CSSS+CSS with a dash of Valhalla. 2nd example tweaked a little to sound a bit larger

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/jose-example-mp3.18740/][/AUDIOPLUS]

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/josej-example-mp3.18741/][/AUDIOPLUS]
 

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keepitsimple

Active Member
This is only CSSS+CSS with a dash of Valhalla. 2nd example tweaked a little to sound a bit larger

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/jose-example-mp3.18740/][/AUDIOPLUS]

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/josej-example-mp3.18741/][/AUDIOPLUS]
Can you post the same example with only CSS ? I’m just curious. You don’t have to. The reason why is because I cannot help myself unhear the trumpet-like sound in the melody, which I suspect CSSS to be the culprit (Never liked that library by the way, sounds too cold and lifeless to me). CSS on the other hand: I LOVE.
 

Batrawi

Active Member
Can you post the same example with only CSS ? I’m just curious. You don’t have to. The reason why is because I cannot help myself unhear the trumpet-like sound in the melody, which I suspect CSSS to be the culprit (Never liked that library by the way, sounds too cold and lifeless to me). CSS on the other hand: I LOVE.
surprise is...I only used CSS for the chords. The melody was all CSSS (using the transpose trick to create ensemble), so you have some very loyal/unmistaken ears here for having identified the sound you don't like in CSSS (which I may have emphasized for you since the melody is just a multiple instances of CSSS)
Funny thing is how people hear things differently. I could be LOVING how CSSS sounds like for the same reason why you hate it! The difference is that my ears are not detecting the sound you're talking about while on the contrary considering this fake ensemble more realistic than what CSS can yield with its violins. I love both libraries don't get me wrong...But when it comes to "Lyrical" melodies, I found nothing closely good as CSSS.
 

keepitsimple

Active Member
surprise is...I only used CSS for the chords. The melody was all CSSS (using the transpose trick to create ensemble), so you have some very loyal/unmistaken ears here for having identified the sound you don't like in CSSS (which I may have emphasized for you since the melody is just a multiple instances of CSSS)
Funny thing is how people hear things differently. I could be LOVING how CSSS sounds like for the same reason why you hate it! The difference is that my ears are not detecting the sound you're talking about while on the contrary considering this fake ensemble more realistic than what CSS can yield with its violins. I love both libraries don't get me wrong...But when it comes to "Lyrical" melodies, I found nothing closely good as CSSS.
Lol, multiple instances of CSSS, yeah that definitely was more than enough to let my ears call the warning. Thanks for clarifying. I recently layered CSS with BDT and oh my.....goosebumps. You might be surprised what BDT can do in terms of solo/melody highlighting/adding details, besides the fact that it sounds gorgeous on its own.
 
OP
josejherring

josejherring

Senior Member
Thanks for all the replies. I will try and use this one post to answer the points brought up.

First, I'm not really a newbee that's for sure. I've been at it for a long time. I just got frustrated with samples so went over to just writing concert music for a bit. Kind of got out of the scoring films game to re-asses my priorities. That assessment is over. Somewhere if you do a search there was a grand overly dramatic post detailing my frustrations which I won't get into.

I do tend to have only problems with Vlns. I can make any lower strings sing tremendously even without legato samples. Did it for years with little effort. There's something illusive about vlns though that they just never sound right. So I tweak for days because they just don't sound right to me. I've even gone so far as to record my own violins with a few people on this forum a while back. Still didn't get it right.

I've tried all the techniques suggested here. I've layered, I've used solo vln along with HS, CS2, LASSLS, and still can't seem to pull it off to my satisfaction. I get it where it's "good enough". There's certainly isn't anything in what I posted or in this entire piece that I find too horrible but I got use to a certain violin sound coming from where I came from musically and I've just not been able to get it or anywhere near it with vlns.

Though it never occurred to me that lack of reverb would even make that much of a difference. But, it actually did a lot to get me closer.

In the end, I like the new options. Afflautus I never even heard of until now. Will give that a shot. CSS and Soarting strings, the price is right and I'm convinced that SSS is going to end up in my template probably replacing much of HS which lately I've just found too daunting to even have any fun working with. Though I do love the sound.

I think, that most of you are right. I'm going to have to experiment with a mixing of smaller sections, larger sections and solo strings to get what I'm after. Bellow is a post of the string sound that I grew up with. I need that vln sound from 3:00 to about 6:00 ( and yes I know it starts with solo strings Glen Dictorow was the lead violinst)

 

keepitsimple

Active Member
I still suggest to go for CSS. I'm sure you know this, but the key in playing lead melodies with Vlns 1 is CC1, along with tweaking the vibrato to taste. For example, i never leave the vibrato in CSS on its default state when i launch the library, i usually set it to around 50%.
 
OP
josejherring

josejherring

Senior Member
This is only CSSS+CSS with a dash of Valhalla. 2nd example tweaked a little to sound a bit larger

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/jose-example-mp3.18740/][/AUDIOPLUS]

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/josej-example-mp3.18741/][/AUDIOPLUS]
I like it.

Also, if you have time could you repost it with the following change add a 2 bar cresc and 2 bar descrecendo to the phrase. I'd like to hear how the libraries handle the dynamic transition.
 
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Saxer

Senior Member
The Zarathustra example sounds beautiful but as far as I know it's 3 times divisi for each section. You'll probably need a whole park of libraries for that. Soundwise it would probably help to add high amplitude vibrato libraries like Soaring Strings and CSS/CSSS for the espressivo parts and maybe SCS for divisi... ok, that's probably not really the answer to a satisfying workflow. But I think a mix of playable solo and section will get you closer. The solo strings should have control over vibrato level and speed.
 

jaketanner

Senior Member
Performance Samples violin, as mentioned before...super easy to play. However, experience aside, unless you are a killer pianist, that can physically play the parts in without doing any type of step input, or slowing down...then time is always going to be needed to tweak. This has nothing to do with your composing or orchestrating experience, it's a skill that helps input things like strings, as it allows you to "perform" the parts in. A guitarist might struggle with this part, however, they may be a killer composer/orchestrator...but if you lack those keyboard skills that allow smooth performances that get you that 70% there...you will always have the need to tweak after...it's something that all composers have accepted. Moreso if the composer is not that skilled at playing the instrument they're inputting...but you get what I'm saying. Yes, there are better libraries, but those better libraries benefit more from being "performed" into the DAW...look at the walkthroughs of most...they are "performed"...especially in SF, or 8Dio's and Cinesamples' walkthroughs...
 

Daniel

Active Member
My concern is "Con Moto Violins" / Lass 3 / Spitfire Chamber Strings.
Soaring Strings is good too.
 

jaketanner

Senior Member
Con moto violin has a free patch to try and it’s great. But until they complete the bundle, makes no sense for me to buy strings in pieces if I can’t make a complete orchestra. But it does sound great
 

ism

Senior Member
I am referring to this last line you wrote here: I am afraid but most if not all libraries out there need at least some proper midi performing (or programmed or better both) treatment, so you won´t get a library which sounds just lyrical and make your track performance sound lyrically great. So still there are libraries on the market which can help you getting there better than others imo. As pointed out some of the contendors are worth a look:

1. CSS
2. Berlin Strings (also Expansion A/B might be interesting to check out)
3. Afflatus
4. Probably what saxer mentioned using some solo libraries from audiomodeling to layer them)
5. 8dio Adagio Stringsh

I think crucial is still the proper midi treatment and having an understand how to write also for strings. Your example sounds not bad at all, but lacks a bit of that inner motion and micro dynamics and probably also vibrato expression on some of the notes which can add more mojo. Programming lyrical or soaring lines for strings is one of the hardest things to get right, and I am sorry to say but this is something you have to consider in your workflow to put attention on otherwise you won´t get any descent impression. So try out a few things like layering different patches from different libraries and look for patches which give you a sound you are looking for. Unfortunately what is also a problem are that the legato transitions of sampled strings can cause bumps as the scripting isn´t tailored towards specific low dynamic writing range and libraries have not that deeply sampled transitions enough and so when playing quite lines with overlapping notes those transitions can sound sloppy and strange. I would try also to use little tricks like sudden dynamic curve dips to compensate such things or to fake bowchanges. Also micro swells on long notes fading in / out are adding a bit more of a natural flow. Also repeated notes are often a problem as unlike the shorts most devs don´t sample imo enough repetition longs to surpass the problem that you are hearing the same note with same tuning and swell / pitch fluctuation charateristics repeated over and over again which the human ear perceives sounding fake.

Here is an example (started yesterday, so not finished) where I layered a bit of different libraries like berlin Strings combined with their expansions, afflatus for divisi sections, 8 dio adagio violas and one solo violin from spitfire on the upper line to add more contour + a tiny bit of css violas here and there. And though it may sound like done in a few minutes, I spent almost 2 full days on that few bars mostly because of programming cc curves, leveling and trying to put all samples together which means that there is no instant gratification to create lyrical lines quickly imo and yet I have to do more on that lines. I wished string libraries can do those things faster and easier, but I feel especially with those quiter lyrical sections its extremely hard to let them sound lyrical, and expression yet lyrical and quite.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/b2wy006mqajvel9/Alexander_Schiborr_Tschaikowsky_Romeo_v4.mp3?dl=0

Would love to see a screen cast doing a real deep dive on how you meticulously craft this quality of lyricality. Or indeed a Verta style masterclass,
 

muk

Senior Member
If you need a hollywood sound and a quick and uncomplicated workflow, I think that currently it is either CSS or bust. @Batrawi's example gives an idea what CSS sounds like, though I don't like the layering with CSSS here. Especially not in the first example. It makes CSS sound smaller than it does, and something in the vibrato doesn't sound right to me. I would prefer that example without the layering.

I am not at my music computer this weekend, so I can't share a different attempt at your piece with CSS. But here is something lyrical I did a while back. Everything CSS only:

https://vi-control.net/community/th...ilerish-track-cinematic-studio-strings.56059/
 

Erik

Senior Member
Herewith an own arrangement of a piano work, Canco No.6, Federico Mompou (a Catalan composer) for string orchestra. Is this espressivo enough? Is the sound romantical enough? I am eager to hear your findings here.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/mompoucanco6-mp3.18758/][/AUDIOPLUS]
 

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AlexanderSchiborr

Senior Member
Would love to see a screen cast doing a real deep dive on how you meticulously craft this quality of lyricality. Or indeed a Verta style masterclass,
well, kudos to you for the interest, though I feel that this is niche and not many people are that interested into that specific subject (do that with Spiccato Ostinatos and the thread explodes lol) and even less what I have to say I guess. Having said that I work for quite some time with a befriended composer and we are creating custom performance related patches for berlin Strings which are completely redone from scratch and follow an entirely different philosophy: Patches tailored towards specific situations, e.g. this one is an "articulated" run.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3oyb0f0m4wwnche/Runs_Example.mpeg?dl=0
 
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artomatic

I Compose With My Ears
Here's an (unmixed) example of additional orchestra parts for a jazz ballad (without the jazz ballad as I didn't produce it). Strings are Afflatus.
Orch-add-on--to-Jazzballad.mp3

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/orch-add-on-to-jazzballad-mp3.18733/][/AUDIOPLUS]

That Afflatus Strings!
It's my go-to library at the moment. Sometimes I do layer it with other libraries but in this demo (using only Afflatus), I love how intimate, emotional and convincing it sounds, especially with @Saxer 's masterful programming.

Yes, Afflatus is not your typical bread and butter string library but it sure sounds great out of the box!
 

jonathanparham

Active Member
I've been at it for a long time. I just got frustrated with samples so went over to just writing concert music for a bit. Kind of got out of the scoring films game to re-asses my priorities. That assessment is over. Somewhere if you do a search there was a grand overly dramatic post detailing my frustrations which I won't get into.
well you never leave, you just kinda move to other gigs right lol
 
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josejherring

josejherring

Senior Member
I really like Afflatus strings. George is being a little cryptic on his site on the size of the sections.

Would anybody be willing to play a short line and post it without divisi or without additional reverb? I'd like to find out if the naked violin ensemble sound is what I'm after.
 
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