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Lyle Murphy Books

Dewdman42

Senior Member
When questions are asked about the theory on this site it is usually responded to with a suggestion to sign up for private lessons. I have had the interviews with eis instructors and they told me nothing about the theory, nor would I expect them to be able to explain it in an hour long phone call. I think many people have been clear what their turn off is, there is no economical way to learn about it. They are interested, but it’s cost prohibitive to learn when the only way is through private lessons at $100 per hour.

Also their estimation of how long it would take to work through the private lesson plan, it was represented as needing to be YEARS, on a weekly basis. The reason is because in addition to teaching the theory they working students step by step through composition studies, which is not a bad thing per say but it’s not what all people want or need just to learn the core eis theory
 
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stonzthro

Senior Member
You can buy books on quantum physics (one of the hardest topics for most humans to grasp) for $144 on amazon, but you can only learn Spud's method as it is distributed by his pupils. Hmm... Would I learn all there is to know about quantum physics by reading this collection? No. Would I gain a much better understanding of what it is? Most certainly!


I think the point here is that many of the students respect Spud's wishes to protect it and pass it on teacher to student; and to their credit they keep their word. One cannot legally protect a theory or method, so Spud was smart in that wish but let's stop saying it can't be taught any way but teacher to student; that is just silly.

Also, I respect that the teachers themselves spent a ton of money to get to where they are and would probably prefer to leverage that investment - makes sense.

Bottom line - things ain't gonna change, no matter how many times this topic is brought up.
 

Craig Sharmat

Moderator
I'm just getting around to this now, been busy, but it seems like the typical arguments and counter arguments we have seen for yrs have resurfaced, and as usual there are valid arguments on both sides. I have heard great writing by both graduates and students, and I've heard pieces I was not fond of by both. Having technical knowledge is not a certainty to writing even good music but it does allow for more possibilities and in a nutshell that is a large part of what this course offers. The price can be prohibitive to a person needing money, it was when I was a student. On the other hand as a teacher my time is better spent monetarily doing something else. I teach mostly for 2 reasons, I like to see students improve and the wealth of information in the course is so vast and useful it's great to go over it again, and again.
 
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vgamer1982

New Member
You are running around in circles arguing with yourself.
Cool story.

EIS would not help in the slightest to understand any of the works you mentioned.
I hear lots about what it isn't, nothing about what it is. Nothing that makes any sense. I really don't see why you have such a problem with people pointing that obvious flaw out.

"Spud" Murphy was a jazz musician. He was an arranger for Benny Goodman and Tommy Dorsey.
Andre Previn is on the album I posted.
Lots of appeals to authority...no content. No explanation. Just "give us money if you want to know what it is".

Oscar Peterson would be in my opinion his most famous student.
The EIS piano book I have has a foreword by Herbie Hancock endorsing the book.
Cheap appeals to authority, usually one-offs. Any other musical theory I can analyze easily because they're rarely secrets.

"Spud" is much more like Sammy Nestico, or Russel Garcia than Stockhausen or Varèse.

His books would fit much more in a university jazz program than 20th century avant grade.
I thought the point was it was style-agnostic - now it's not?

But why write 10 posts about how it's not for you ?
It's not for me, apparently - but I'm a student of music theory. I seek out all forms of it. But if someone makes big claims - like lots do for EIS without any form of the usual kind of backup - why not discuss it? You seem awfully concerned that various people with decent grasps of music theory are asking questions in this forum.

Do you have a narcissistic personality disorder?
23 total posts to your profile, and 10 are on this ? Why not just move along ?
No. Do you have an issue with people who ask questions?

Why not answer the questions? Why doesn't someone just demonstrate some of what this magical theory is other than "you have to pay an instructor"?

Aren't you an adult that can use your own critical thinking skills to make a determination?
Critical thinking skills requires the input of information to be parsed. There isn't any about EIS in any meaningful form. Which makes it entirely unique in the field of music theory. Name another music theory that is similarly locked off. There aren't any.

Ok.... it's not for you. Why the grandstanding ?

If it's because of the marketing and not being able to see the contents first......well...... you are
on the wrong web site full stop.
It's a forum about music composition discussion, how could it be the wrong forum? You're terribly worried about people asking questions.

How many sample libraries make big claims with their marketing ?
Lots. It's irritating there too. But they're easily tested since the actual product is on display. Not wild claims and mere abstractions. If I can't tell what about a piece of music made it influenced by EIS - which I can't, because nobody will say what it even is - how can we possibly judge?

It's very common to find sample libraries that cost from $500 to bundles up to $2000 all of which need to be bought first to get access to the materials.
Can you name another abstract musical theory or idea that has to be studied with an instructor and cannot even be imparted in its simplest form, apparently, online? I can evaluate results of a sample library. I cannot evaluate what aspects of the music created with this "system" are unique.

Do you jump up and down about that ?
Definitely. Especially libraries. I skipped the rest of the false equivalencies because they were absurd.[/QUOTE]
 
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Craig Sharmat

Moderator
Vgamer,In the end it is about the music and you can decide whether you like what the students in the course do. Go to the website, that should be enough to stop worthless debate which is a waste of time. Also why don't you use your real name...;). I appreciate when people come in here and try to take down the course, it always fails and it brings more attention to the course, something we would not do on our own...so thank you.

For those asking about MITA, it is run by 2 EIS graduates and there is some EIS in it but they have branched out and mostly do their own thing.
 

wst3

my office these days
When questions are asked about the theory on this site it is usually responded to with a suggestion to sign up for private lessons. I have had the interviews with eis instructors and they told me nothing about the theory, nor would I expect them to be able to explain it in an hour long phone call.
My experience was quite different. I don't wish to put any of the teachers on the spot, so no names! Two different teachers spent at least an hour each with me, on the phone, and while they aren't going to teach EIS in an hour (wouldn't that be lovely) I do believe I understand what it is I would learn, and what they expect of me in terms of time and money.

My life turned upside down a couple years ago, and it hasn't completely settled, and I'm not going to start something to which I can not commit. But I do believe I know enough to make an informed decision, and as I mentioned earlier, I will be studying EIS when time allows.
 

Dewdman42

Senior Member
Except what you just described is the same thing that I described, not “quite different”. You just described exactly the same thing.

Bottom line, if you want to learn EIS, the only way is through private lessons.
 

Craig Sharmat

Moderator
It is the only way. There might be some people who can learn EIS with just the course materials but for myself and almost everyone of the students I have had, at least initially they would have gone off course (pun intended) and wasted their time.
 

FriFlo

Senior Member
For those asking about MITA, it is run by 2 EIS graduates and there is some EIS in it but they have branched out and mostly do their own thing.
Thanks you for the civil answere to my question, which others obviously consider a sacrilege to ask!
So, all I want is to give my final feedback, wether it interests you or not is of course entirely to you.
I will probably never study EIS in the form it is currently presented. The reason is quite simply that it seems to be less dependent on the method, by what I read, but rather a one on one teaching. I can see, that this is of course something with great potential benefits. However, it is entirely dependent on the individual teacher. From checking out the teachers, there seems to be quite a big gap in the abilitities between the individual composers listed as teachers (no names from me either, to keep it civil, but I can't leave that part out without being untruthful ...)!
Apart from that, 100$ per hour seems way to expensive to me, considering that you are generally expected to take one lesson per week regularly. Maybe you can settle with three per month, I am not sure! But even if I have to take only two a month, the time I have to spend extra to be able to afford that seems not worth it to me. Better spend that time in self study and score reading.
So, while I am totally not convinced by the EIS thing as it is currently offered, I am curious as anybody about the method and would probably buy a book on it.
I can live without that book, though! It looks very much unlikely any of this is gonna change, so, the curiosity is always fed by something you cannot have. I suppose I would be very disappointed when I found it out ... anyway, I will stop posting, as it is indeed starting to get a pointless thread. Arguments start repeating ...
 

Craig Sharmat

Moderator
Just so you know, though weekly lessons are suggested to keep momentum going (those on 2 week plans are likely to stop from experience) there is no forced lesson schedule. One student did the entire course in under 3 yrs, another David Blumberg was proud that he did it in seventeen! Life and work of course take precedence and some take when they can. Also many people get through say Book VI and go, that's enough.
 

wst3

my office these days
I do not see how our experiences are similar, yet alone the same thing. I got all the answers I needed.

Of course you have to take private lessons to learn EIS. That's how it is done. That is no secret.

If they could teach it in an hour I expect they'd charge quite a bit for that hour<G>!
 

gsilbers

Part of Pulsesetter-Sounds.com
i took a few lessons with david blumberg (i think?. he lived in pacific palisades and passed away, its been a while)

i had the books and the way that theory was approach was interesting. i dont think i would of understood things if i just saw the books since its similar to jazz theory fro berklee but at the samet ime diferent. eis, jazz and classical mostly take you to the same place but in each it helps change styles or ideas.. imo. i was always looking a way to translate what i leanred at berklee and yet it was like a paralel world.
i do think there could be like rick beato sort of main courses where the basics can be descirbed and then have teachers help out, just like any approach. but then again, i only took a few courses.
i did see the potential of composing w/o key signatures interesting, specially for film music.

The whole way of approaching the learning and field seems to me a little restrictive. so much so that imo, since david passed on, and most EIS info is in this forum and themain website, i feel the whole concept will end up here :http://mjt.org/themainpage/main2.html .
just a glass stand with a few pages of EIS with a short description of what EIS was in a forgotten corner of the Venice (LA) museum of jurassic technology.

back when david and spud where doing classes it made sense since many film composers in LA knew about it, and composers where into that. but nowadays i think someone should make video courses for youtube and promote a website to find instructions to learn more about it. at least a main video showcasing the ideas behind it will enable newcomers to try new things, instead of being some random forum post no one has any idea about it and dicarded for the next spitfire labs video.
 

Craig Sharmat

Moderator
gsilbers...videos are in the works and yes there is a possibility that the course dies at some point which would be a shame as there is so much useful information in it. We are working on trying to make information more accessible, there is a ways to go though and it is not our area of expertise.
 

Farkle

Senior Member
My experience was quite different. I don't wish to put any of the teachers on the spot, so no names! Two different teachers spent at least an hour each with me, on the phone, and while they aren't going to teach EIS in an hour (wouldn't that be lovely) I do believe I understand what it is I would learn, and what they expect of me in terms of time and money.

My life turned upside down a couple years ago, and it hasn't completely settled, and I'm not going to start something to which I can not commit. But I do believe I know enough to make an informed decision, and as I mentioned earlier, I will be studying EIS when time allows.
Well, Bill, FWIW, if you decide EIS is something you like to study, I'm only 30 min away. And, my studio has a couch, and a bunch of 12-15 year scotches. :)

Mike
 

Craig Sharmat

Moderator
If it helps I always share the books with people if they come over my place, it is not supposed to be a secret, i just can't give course materials away. Bill I would think Mike would be happy to show you the materials.
 

Farkle

Senior Member
If it helps I always share the books with people if they come over my place, it is not supposed to be a secret, i just can't give course materials away. Bill I would think Mike would be happy to show you the materials.

oh, absolutely, if anyone wanted to come to my studio, and hangout, i could show materials, walkthrough some cues i did with eis, etc. Not a problem. and.... the 12 year scotches... :)
 
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