Long durations on brass
- Thread starter Samrat
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Samrat
(formerly: akhill jain)
Yep
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Samrat
(formerly: akhill jain)
wilifordmusic
Active Member
You would probably be best served by putting two players per voice and staggering them for breathing and short breaks. Perhaps 1 player for 2-8 bars alternating (tempo dependent) and then doubling them only on louder moments.
Extreme dynamics and range, very soft or very loud can also be challenging for your musicians. Things written within the range of the staff that your musician is reading is generally the most forgiving. The more ledger lines the greater the dangers.
And yes, there is a pretty big difference between even a good amateur musician and a person who plays for a living.
While your musicians happiness may not seem important to your musical vision, it will make a big difference in the end product as well as their interest in playing for you again.
When in doubt, ask a player of the instrument you are writing for.
When I played trumpet for a living, there were certain composers/orchestrators that I politely declined to work for because of their consistent disregard for what was physically possible with a trumpet.
I was not alone.
Extreme dynamics and range, very soft or very loud can also be challenging for your musicians. Things written within the range of the staff that your musician is reading is generally the most forgiving. The more ledger lines the greater the dangers.
And yes, there is a pretty big difference between even a good amateur musician and a person who plays for a living.
While your musicians happiness may not seem important to your musical vision, it will make a big difference in the end product as well as their interest in playing for you again.
When in doubt, ask a player of the instrument you are writing for.
When I played trumpet for a living, there were certain composers/orchestrators that I politely declined to work for because of their consistent disregard for what was physically possible with a trumpet.
I was not alone.
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Samrat
(formerly: akhill jain)
Thank you so much! It's really insightful.
wilifordmusic
Active Member
In my experience, very rarely. It is used more as a theatrical bit on stage rather than a practical technique that would be used in a studio. You would be better served staggering the phrases within instrument sections (horns, trombones, etc..) and indicating preferred breath marks or phrasing in each players part to ensure constant sound.
And remember, the bigger the instrument the shorter the phrase. Big mouthpiece=big air.
If you can't sing it at a moderately loud dynamic, they probably can't play it.
To ensure maximum playability and maximum musician cooperation, make it clear what your musical goal is and show willingness to adjust the phrasing if it is necessary to make it work.
And remember, the bigger the instrument the shorter the phrase. Big mouthpiece=big air.
If you can't sing it at a moderately loud dynamic, they probably can't play it.
To ensure maximum playability and maximum musician cooperation, make it clear what your musical goal is and show willingness to adjust the phrasing if it is necessary to make it work.
I play trombone as well as compose.
Questions to ask yourself:
- what is the range of the note for the particular brass instruments?
Low notes use much more air than higher notes
High notes can be strenuous, and rest is needed
Soft note can be scary to play if ppp or softer; you need excellent players to sneak in quietly even if they are staggered breathing
Bass trombone uses much more air than a tenor trombone
Tuba uses a lot of air
Questions to ask yourself:
- what is the range of the note for the particular brass instruments?
Low notes use much more air than higher notes
High notes can be strenuous, and rest is needed
Soft note can be scary to play if ppp or softer; you need excellent players to sneak in quietly even if they are staggered breathing
Bass trombone uses much more air than a tenor trombone
Tuba uses a lot of air
But...here's a true story about an exceptional musician....
My trombone teacher, the late Dave Robbins, used to be a heavyweight LA studio player in the 1950's and lead trombone with Harry James .....fantastic allround musician.
An old friend of his was arranging music for Olivia Newton John's LP recording titled 'Evita' back in the 70's, and for one of the tunes he wanted a trombone note to crescendo from pianissimo to forte over many, many measures in one breath.
He knew of only one player that he trusted to do, Dave Robbins. The recording crew flew from LA to Vancouver, Canada where Dave had moved to in the '60's just to record him play 1 note!
He would laugh at this, and say that maybe he'd start charging his rates by the note! Best monetary day ever for playing 1 note!
Dave would always say don't underestimate what a good brass player is capable of when your'e writing....but, make sure you know who you're writing for if asking for something 'special'.
True story.
My trombone teacher, the late Dave Robbins, used to be a heavyweight LA studio player in the 1950's and lead trombone with Harry James .....fantastic allround musician.
An old friend of his was arranging music for Olivia Newton John's LP recording titled 'Evita' back in the 70's, and for one of the tunes he wanted a trombone note to crescendo from pianissimo to forte over many, many measures in one breath.
He knew of only one player that he trusted to do, Dave Robbins. The recording crew flew from LA to Vancouver, Canada where Dave had moved to in the '60's just to record him play 1 note!
He would laugh at this, and say that maybe he'd start charging his rates by the note! Best monetary day ever for playing 1 note!
Dave would always say don't underestimate what a good brass player is capable of when your'e writing....but, make sure you know who you're writing for if asking for something 'special'.
True story.
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Samrat
(formerly: akhill jain)
Thank you so much, this really helps
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Samrat
(formerly: akhill jain)
Rodney Money
On V.I. avoiding work.
I’m a brass player as well as a composer too. Typically for slow continuous scenarios for brass I typically illustrate to other composers in this fashion concerning endurance: picture if you have a slow hymn with 4 verses and 4 choruses, Brass players could play: Verse 1, chorus, Verse 2, chorus, rest Verse 3, play chorus, Verse 4, chorus. Here’s a hymn of mine that just plays 1 Verse and 1 chorus for demonstration:
soundcloud.app.goo.gl
If You Make The Lord Your Refuge
If You Make The Lord Your Refuge composed by Rodney Money is a hymn for the unexpected transformation of 2020. [email protected].
soundcloud.app.goo.gl
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Samrat
(formerly: akhill jain)
Thank you so much, I think that makes sense!I’m a brass player as well as a composer too. Typically for slow continuous scenarios for brass I typically illustrate to other composers in this fashion concerning endurance: picture if you have a slow hymn with 4 verses and 4 choruses, Brass players could play: Verse 1, chorus, Verse 2, chorus, rest Verse 3, play chorus, Verse 4, chorus. Here’s a hymn of mine that just plays 1 Verse and 1 chorus for demonstration:
If You Make The Lord Your Refuge
If You Make The Lord Your Refuge composed by Rodney Money is a hymn for the unexpected transformation of 2020. [email protected].
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Samrat
(formerly: akhill jain)
Here's the exercise that I programmed on Horns after having gotten some insight from this thread. It's only my first attempt at programming brass and any observations would help! Thank you
vi-control.net
Homophonic exercise- Horns
I'm currently reading and learning about orchestrating the brass section and I thought of making my first attempt at doing a slow homophonic exercise on horns and programming it. Last week after discussing about the practical playability on another thread-...
vi-control.net
longshan
New Member
And for horn players, it's really never done. I wouldn't write something that needs circular breathing, cuz a real horn player won't be able to do it beyond holding a single note. And even then, keeping the pitch steady requires a lot of practise. We don't have time for that, lol.
I'm a horn player, btw.
Horn player here. Heard the piece - it's not a problem to play. The dynamics you used help. We wouldn't necessarily phrase it chord by chord like in the mockup, mind you - longer lines would be thought of. The most extreme piece I've played like that was by James Tenney (I don't recall the title), which consisted only of long notes, each one played for about 20 sec. and I think the piece lasted 15-20 minutes. That was tiring!
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Samrat
(formerly: akhill jain)
Thanks for the insight!
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Samrat
(formerly: akhill jain)
Thank you for the insight, It's really helpful
