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LogicPro + VEP and AU3

Dewdman42

Senior Member
I just sat down to test out the new AU3 plugin in VEPro7. I wanted to report my experience, which is overall very favorable, though there are still some rough edges for Apple to work out in LPX.
  1. Was able to play perfectly a 90 track score into a single VEP instance, using 8 ports. YAY!
  2. First, just want to say, performance skyrocketed to supremely better using the VEP-AU3 plugin, compared to the multiport macro approach from before into a single VEP instance. I will be retiring the multiport macros for good soon. See new performance graph, this beats everything I have tested to date! https://vi-control.net/community/threads/daw-performance-test-results.82659/
  3. As of now, Apple has limited LogicPro to 127 midi channels through AU3 instrument channels, per VEP instance. Hopefully they improve that in the future, but I'm not hopeful due to ancient code in the enviornment.
  4. The easiest way right now to use this feature is to start out with VSL's AU3 templates. For now. The reason is because you have to manually create some mixer channel strip objects in the environment in order to have multiple ports. At least for now. Hopefully Apple will come up with a more elegant way to configure that.
  5. If you're depending on Scripter based articulation handling, LogicPro is not ready for you yet, since Scripter has nothing to indicate which port events are on in the script, as of now.
  6. All Notes off doesn't work right in LogicPro now, it doesn't send allnotesoff to all ports, only to 16 midi channels, I guess on port 1.
  7. When I create track stacks of some of these multiport tracks, it gets a little confusing because basically a completely useless VCA fader or BUS strip is created for the folder. Its useless because in this case we're grouping midi tracks into a folder, but not the actual audio output. Hopefully Apple will think that through a little more since its confusing and clogs up the mixer with useless channels. But basically the overall mismatch in my opinion is the disconnect between the source midi tracks and the returning audio channels from the instrument. In this case you can have up to 127 source midi tracks feeding a single VEP plugin instrument, which then can bring back audio through up to 16 stereo return channels of its own. Those are the only busses of any usefulness in LogicPro/VEP scenario. When you put hte source midi tracks into folders for organizational purposes, that's great, but LPX assumes you want them either summed or not, creating either a bus or a VCA fader channel in each case...but in either case those faders have no effect on anything whatsoever. So this is where the LPX paradigm in general is a bit of a mismatch from the reality of multiport AU3 instrument plugins and using large multi's in general.
Anyway that's all I have time to write at the moment. If anyone has questions for how to get AU3 working, I think I have it figured out. You need High Sierra and Vepro7 in order to try it.
 
Last edited:

fiestared

Vintage -but- not obsolete
I just sat down to test out the new AU3 plugin in VEPro7. I wanted to report my experience, which is overall very favorable, though there are still some rough edges for Apple to work out in LPX.
  1. Was able to play perfectly a 90 track score into a single VEP instance, using 8 ports. YAY!
  2. First, just want to say, performance skyrocketed to supremely better using the VEP-AU3 plugin, compared to the multiport macro approach from before into a single VEP instance. I will be retiring the multiport macros for good soon. See new performance graph, this beats everything I have tested to date! https://vi-control.net/community/threads/daw-performance-test-results.82659/
  3. As of now, Apple has limited LogicPro to 16 ports through AU3 instrument channels, which means 256 midi channels per VEP instance. That's still plenty for me, but folks wanting thousands of template tracks will still need to use multiple instances.
  4. The easiest way right now to use this feature is to start out with VSL's AU3 templates. For now. The reason is because you have to manually create some mixer channel strip objects in the environment in order to have multiple ports. At least for now. Hopefully Apple will come up with a more elegant way to configure that.
  5. If you're depending on Scripter based articulation handling, LogicPro is not ready for you yet, since Scripter has nothing to indicate which port events are on in the script, as of now.
  6. All Notes off doesn't work right in LogicPro now, it doesn't send allnotesoff to all ports, only to 16 midi channels, I guess on port 1.
  7. When I create track stacks of some of these multiport tracks, it gets a little confusing because basically a completely useless VCA fader or BUS strip is created for the folder. Its useless because in this case we're grouping midi tracks into a folder, but not the actual audio output. Hopefully Apple will think that through a little more since its confusing and clogs up the mixer with useless channels. But basically the overall mismatch in my opinion is the disconnect between the source midi tracks and the returning audio channels from the instrument. In this case you can have up to 256 source midi tracks feeding a single VEP plugin instrument, which then can bring back audio through up to 16 stereo return channels of its own. Those are the only busses of any usefulness in LogicPro/VEP scenario. When you put hte source midi tracks into folders for organizational purposes, that's great, but LPX assumes you want them either summed or not, creating either a bus or a VCA fader channel in each case...but in either case those faders have no effect on anything whatsoever. So this is where the LPX paradigm in general is a bit of a mismatch from the reality of multiport AU3 instrument plugins and using large multi's in general.
Anyway that's all I have time to write at the moment. If anyone has questions for how to get AU3 working, I think I have it figured out. You need High Sierra and Vepro7 in order to try it.
Thank you for the time you spent to try it !
 

Synetos

Gear Addict
Is Cubase sucking air on the test because the tests are running on a Mac OS?
Is it that bad on Windows 10 machine?
How about Reaper alone?

Thanks for taking the time to do the tests. It sparked my interest in maybe firing up my Mac with LPX :)
 
OP
Dewdman42

Dewdman42

Senior Member
Put this question on that other thread...but people tell me Cubase runs better on windows, but I have no way to test or confirm that. It does suck wind on my mac. Not sure when I will have time to setup a reaper-alone test...leaving town in the morning for a week, so after that. i will do it eventually, but I don't expect it to be much better. Note that in all cases except DP9, adding VEP improved overall performance compared to using the DAW alone.
 

Synetos

Gear Addict
Put this question on that other thread...but people tell me Cubase runs better on windows, but I have no way to test or confirm that. It does suck wind on my mac. Not sure when I will have time to setup a reaper-alone test...leaving town in the morning for a week, so after that. i will do it eventually, but I don't expect it to be much better. Note that in all cases except DP9, adding VEP improved overall performance compared to using the DAW alone.
Well, I do scratch my head sometimes as to why Cubase eats so much resources, even on my fairly beefy Windows 10 machine. Certain VSTs, like Omnisphere bring my machine to its knees unless I offload to VEP...or run with too high of latency.
 

rhye

Member
Thanks so much for the report Dewdman.
I still wonder if there would be any performance advantage of using a complex setup of multiports instead of using multiple instances. I know that you are not a fan of this approach, but I honestly have never detected any hit in performance by using multiple instances.
 
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Dewdman42

Dewdman42

Senior Member
One of these days I will do a multiple instance comparison, but may be a while. I do not expect it to perform better but hey you never know. Mainly I prefer the workflow of a single (or a few) instance. I prefer mixing stems there also. I actually don’t see much the point of using vep at all in one instance per instrument unless it’s in order to use a slave machine and you just want to mix all tracks in your daw’s Mixer. The main perf issue I see with multiple instances is that each instance is essentially a separate complete set of resources, so there fundamentally must be more overhead for that. On top of that you have the thread preference that needs to configure vep as number of threads to create per instance. Even if you set that to a value of 1, with 100 instances you will have a lot of threads competing with each other for core time, and probably at the OS level rather then managed by vep itself. As opposed to if you use one instance and you set that instance to the number of threads you want it to use, maybe double your code count minus a few; and vep will manage those threads more intelligently. As soon as you go to two or three instances, that preference becomes very difficult to set ideally. Because you may have to set that thread preference lower to handle multiple instances, but then at any given time if any instance is not making sound, the other active instances would be underutilizing threads due to that setting.
 

Soundhound

Senior Member
My reason for using VEP is just to save cpu headroom. I find the workflow a pain in the neck, but that's probably because I'm not getting the benefit of using templates. If everything were always in the same place, VEP would be fine in that regard. But I wind up using a lot of different instruments all the time (there are staples, sure...) and having to go back and forth between Logic and VEP to deal with the instruments is just another step, or steps, every time.

It streamlines things a bit with VEP to be able to choose a track in Logic and have the VEP instance come up as well, which is why I usually do one channel per instance (I think there's a long standing consensus about VEP working better with Logic using one instruments per instance).

But it stands to reason that the more instances you have, the more work must be going on...

Btw I tried your suggestion about the AU3 version, thanks for that! I put a few patches of Spitfire's Kepler Orchestra to compare (it's a real cpu murderer) and AU3 seemed to be saving about 15% I'd say! Probably differs depending on what kind of processing the instrument is doing...
 
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Dewdman42

Dewdman42

Senior Member
(I think there's a long standing consensus about VEP working better with Logic using one instruments per instance).
I do not agree that this is the “consensus” I have searched the Internet much in this topic and found many debates and strong opinions on the matter both ways but in my estimation it is not a proven case either way, nor is there consensus. It depends on the workflow you like. I do not like having a buzzillion vep instances and don’t even see the point of it. Some people got into that mode because setting up logicpro multi’s requires a bit of logicpro expertise and sometimes throws people off. Also some third party articulation management solutions are much easier to use with one instrument per instance. And if you want to mix every instrument in logic that is the easiest way to route every instrument back to logic’s Mixer, but you give up a lot of what vep is able to do by doing that. Mainly I think logic’s Weirdness with how multi-instruments work is what sends some people to avoid using multi’s and one instrument per instance, but I just don’t see the point of even using vep at that point.
 

Soundhound

Senior Member
As I said, I use VEP because it gives me way more cpu headroom that I need with the mac that I have. Without VEP a typical session for me will max out fairly quickly.

And I guess the consensus I'm referring to is here on vicontrol. After first learning to set things up efficiently a few years ago with much input from people here, and some other sources as well, I got used to doing it that way, and don't even think about it much anymore, just take it as a given when maybe it's not.
 
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Dewdman42

Dewdman42

Senior Member
There are plenty of people here on vicontrol doing it, and vouching for it, both ways. The only "consensus" is that you should follow the work flow that works best for you. I've heard passioned reasoning on both sides of this issue on vicontrol.
 

Nick Batzdorf

Moderator
I don’t get it. The multi port AU3 just doesn’t show up if I insert it. It shows a red ! meaning that it’s missing.

The stereo one works fine.
 

Soundhound

Senior Member
Jesus, calm down. I take back the word 'consensus'.

There are plenty of people here on vicontrol doing it, and vouching for it, both ways. The only "consensus" is that you should follow the work flow that works best for you. I've heard passioned reasoning on both sides of this issue on vicontrol.
 
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Dewdman42

Dewdman42

Senior Member
I don’t get it. The multi port AU3 just doesn’t show up if I insert it. It shows a red ! meaning that it’s missing.

The stereo one works fine.
I haven’t tried the multi out yet. I will next week, out of town now. I was getting the orange button too before and now I’m not, not sure why but check the thing azeteg mentioned, it’s a column in the plugin manager window
 

Ashermusic

Senior Member
I do not agree that this is the “consensus” I have searched the Internet much in this topic and found many debates and strong opinions on the matter both ways but in my estimation it is not a proven case either way, nor is there consensus. It depends on the workflow you like. I do not like having a buzzillion vep instances and don’t even see the point of it. Some people got into that mode because setting up logicpro multi’s requires a bit of logicpro expertise and sometimes throws people off. Also some third party articulation management solutions are much easier to use with one instrument per instance. And if you want to mix every instrument in logic that is the easiest way to route every instrument back to logic’s Mixer, but you give up a lot of what vep is able to do by doing that. Mainly I think logic’s Weirdness with how multi-instruments work is what sends some people to avoid using multi’s and one instrument per instance, but I just don’t see the point of even using vep at that point.
All I can say is that Peter Schwartz, George Leger III and I did extensive testing when it came out and we all concluded that VEP worked better with Logic using one instruments per instance.

I prefer it anyway because I like my Logic project workflow to resemble composing on a full score page.
 

dbudde

Member
As of now, Apple has limited LogicPro to 16 ports through AU3 instrument channels, which means 256 midi channels per VEP instance. That's still plenty for me, but folks wanting thousands of template tracks will still need to use multiple instances.
I can see all 48 ports (VE Pro limit) in Logic Pro. Do you have your VE Pro preferences set to 16 ports?

I am running MacOS Catalina. Maybe that is a difference.
 
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