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Live 10 - What are your impressions so far?

Discussion in 'Your DAW (Digital Audio Workstation)' started by jcrosby, Feb 9, 2018.

  1. jcrosby

    jcrosby Senior Member

    Nov 30, 2014
    Boston MA
    Curious what people think of Live 10 now that it's out in the wild...
  2. krops

    krops Senior Member

    Sep 4, 2014
    If you're already a hardcore seasoned Live user, it's a great upgrade. If you're used to other, more linear DAWs, some of the new features will seem rather half-baked. The multiple clip editing feature, for instance, lets you select up to 7 clips, but you can still only edit one at a time. In essence, it's more of a visual reference tool. The new way of handling automation has infuriated many users, because you can no longer collapse and expand individual automation tracks - you can only remove them (which doesn't delete the automation itself, but removes the track you add by clicking the + symbol). Instead, the hotkey A toggles the automation view, which reveals or hides all automation on all tracks. Additionally, S hotkey collapses all tracks to their smallest size, but amazingly is NOT a toggle, so if you want to return to the previous state, you need to alt+click one track's arrow, like before.

    All this being said, like the update, and pre-ordered a while ago. I was surprised by how much I like the new devices (Wavetable, Pedal and Drum Bus) and the little tweaks to EQ8 and Utility are nice. The Capture feature, which let's you grab notes you've played without recording, is great. Collections is a nice way to add shortcuts to browser items you use a lot.

    I can understand why many users would decide to stay on version 9 (or jump ship, if they're tired of waiting for particular features), but I'm very happy with 10.
    Mheton likes this.
  3. Puzzlefactory

    Puzzlefactory Senior Member

    Nov 22, 2016
    Bit expensive for an upgrade. Would have paid £100 but not 2. At least not right now.

    I’m personally more interested in the Reason 10 upgrade.
    elpedro likes this.
  4. Matt Riley

    Matt Riley Senior Member

    Thanks for this thoughtful review. Do you use other DAWs or is Live the main one? For me, I had to switch to another DAW and use Live for performance and sound design only. I'm still on Live 9. I guess I don't find the new features tempting enough to upgrade.
  5. krops

    krops Senior Member

    Sep 4, 2014
    Stick with Live 9 for performance, and use the other DAW for arranging, no doubt. There's no way Ableton are winning back anyone who found its arrangement features too limiting with this update.

    FWIW, Live is my only DAW; I switched from Reason many years ago, because Reason didn't have audio tracks at the time. While I acknowledge the shortcomings of Live, I have no major beefs with the "Live way" - it's kind of in my blood, and there's no way I have the time or the will to learn a new DAW at this point.
  6. Daniel James

    Daniel James Senior Member

    Jan 9, 2008
    Really wanted it to be amazing. Its a bit of a let down and too expensive of an upgrade for me.

    The edit multiple midi 'feature' which should be standard in all DAWS by now isn't fully functional. You can SEE multiple midi clips at once but you CANT edit them all at once. So if you wanted to select a whole section and transpose it as one block of midi, go fuck yourself. You still have to do it all individually.

    The graphics update makes it harder to decern what is going on in the arrangement window. It used to be the midi clip would have a colour at the top and the midi information in a clear block that matched the background. Now with the big block colours its like a fucking rainbow at times and just feels messy.

    The FX units are great and all but I already have those kinds of FX in abundance.

    As with any upgrade there are bugs here and there.

    Still no extra composer focused feature like the ability to enter specific tempo information, surround sound, decent video features.

    I'm glad I jumped ship a couple years back, Ableton just doesnt seem focused on working composers, more towards the kind of person who would own a lauchpad.

  7. elpedro

    elpedro Senior Member

    Dec 20, 2015
    too expensive for me to even consider, looks more like an update to me, rather than a new version.not enough there for me to spend AUD 419.Would have jumped in at half the price, maybe....
  8. OP

    jcrosby Senior Member

    Nov 30, 2014
    Boston MA
    Logic's my main DAW for heavy duty work, but use Live for non-orchestral production music or sound-designy trailer type stuff... Also like Live for sketching, really haven't found another program that lets me sketch as quickly... Totally agree with DJ though, with groups in groups they could have expanded it to be more useful for media composition but they didn't add anything else that bridged the gap...

    I'm in the camp of users infuriated by automation changes. I tested 10 and it was easily the most commented on aspect of the upgrade. Even testers who liked the new automation didn't see any logic to removing the disclosure triangles. Why they changed something that was done well in the first place, (at least for Live), I don't know... The whole removing a lane to hide it is just a weird choice.
  9. karelpsota

    karelpsota http://karelpsota.com/

    Jul 26, 2013
    Los Angeles
    Been using Live for 10 years now.

    I pre-ordered... got access to the Beta... cancelled my pre-order.

    Nothing in this update will speed up my workflow.
    It seems to slow me down actually.
    • Automation requires extra steps now (hitting A).
    • EQ8 has widen its spectrum within the same UI space - making it less precise in the mid-range.
    • The font is so thin and tiny, that I had to raise the %. Hence making my overview smaller.
    • CPU hit is equally as bad as 9 (perhaps worse).
    • Multi-clip, as others have mentioned, is half assed.
    • The color selector makes no damn sense. (Just do rainbow horizontally and shades vertically, c'mon)
    • Generally UI lacks contrast. It looks like "ungraded RAW video footage". They got rid of black bars that were kind of nice.
    On the upside:
    • Group withing groups - nothing new if you know how to bus.
    • Retrospective record - ok that's actually nice.
    • It closes "faster". Instead of waiting 2 minutes to close 100 track, I now "only" wait 30 sec.
    At this point, I seriously believe that Live needs to be re-built from the ground up.
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2018
    jcrosby likes this.
  10. AdamAlake

    AdamAlake Music Person

    Love it. As someone who records everything in live, I was not really looking for any midi editing upgrades, but the multi clip window is great for diagnosing inner voice leading issues. Unlimited grouping is great for managing orchestral sections and the entire group can be saved into the user library, which allows me to have a modular template, where I just drag and drop entire pregrouped sections into projects as needed.

    The new instrument is top notch, as well as the effects, especially Drum Buss which can almost turn turds into gold, and Echo which is now my goto delay.

    Separating automation into its own fast switch view is a big step up, as it adds a lot of clarity and intuitivity into automation management. The new automation node handling system is also an improvement for me, some hate it, but I find it much more straightforward and quick to use.

    Lastly, the retroactive record function is super useful, I spend a lot of time refining ideas by playing on the MIDI controller, being able to instantly drop in the finished idea without having to record it again saves a lot of time.

    Overall, a top notch upgrade, worth every penny.
    MillsMixx and InLight-Tone like this.
  11. zadillo

    zadillo Active Member

    Jul 16, 2017
    Isn't that essentially what BitWig is (I feel like I read it was from a bunch of former Ableton people who wanted to basically do just that, rebuild what Ableton was from the ground up)
  12. Rasmus Hartvig

    Rasmus Hartvig Senior Member

    ... in Java. Blergh.
  13. n9n9n9

    n9n9n9 Senior Member

    Apr 26, 2017
    Been using Live since 1.5, as my daily driver DAW since v3. A long ass time.

    I can't replace Live as my DAW because of its modular mixer. Almost anything can route to anything, multiple tracks of MIDI or audio into a single track, a single track into other tracks, the Looper's feedback has an insert. It is just very, very rational in how the mixer is set up, especially for live (or improv) sessions.

    It's MIDI automation and control abilities are truly remarkable and very well implemented. Especially if you have a Push.

    v10 lets me have Groups with Groups in them. For me this is huge. I can now collapse my 100+ track template into eight tracks. 100 tracks you say? More than 100, yes. In Ableton I have built a setup where I have eight tracks of intruments with live monitoring controls, with three MIDI tracks for recording patterns for each instrument track (which can route into each other for sound on sound MIDI looping) with MIDI effects for probability, velocity control and pitch offsets. I have also built a 8-track looping machine that has modular patching and can be used to create a feedback network. And so on. Groups of groups enable me to hide all that complexity. Hiding things like that means that I can turn my display off and do everything from loading instruments, plugins and presets on the fly to recoding complex arrangements all with the Push and a single fader box. It is flexible and articulate in a way that feels like a miracle to me. I've tried to build something better with Reaper, with Bitwig, with Logic and with Cubase and they all end up with my not being able to do the most important bits at all and most of the other bits only with lots of manual slog and clicking on a screen. I suppose my situation is somewhat unique... but it is worth noting that my way of working *grew* over the last 15 years working with this tool... and it was the tool that allowed this.

    v10 Session view is improved... there are some good things that you can do that you couldn't before. The new wavetable instrument is ok, but... it doesn't feature a random per note modulation source (as all instruments should) and so it always sounds a bit sterile and in tune. Echo is ok and the new drum bus and pedal effects are top notch. If I bought suite now it is possible that I would have done without Soundtoys and Fabfilter and a number of other plugins and would have saved probably $5000. The suite deal is a good deal. Thinking back to when I had to buy Max/MSP to get max4live and also had to buy a load of effects to have proper sounding tracks...

    If you love Live and you want a flexible, modular tool to build workflows (as opposed to Media Composer Templates) I think that it is the only game in town. If you are a Media Composer it is my guess that you can't use a lot of what makes Live wonderful because you have to stay in Session and think about things differently.

    Would I love it if I was only working in Session mode? I don't think so. Would I love it without a Push? Nope. Would I love it if I hadn't built a crazy performance machine in it and found it to be incredibly stable and customizable? Probably not.

    But suffice it to say that with Live I can do things that you simply can't do anywhere else AND I can do them quickly and fluidly and with my eyes closed which for me is essential to creativity.

    If Live didn't exist my guess is I would be all hardware, mixers and modulars. Which would be a different life, but in this life I can load a program on my computer, then open a patch and have hundreds of hours of development and refinement right there ready to record my ideas... and I can use Spitfire Libraries to boot. I love it -- the best instrument I've ever had.

    I want MPE pretty badly though. I thought that we would have it in v10. That it isn't there and it is in Logic is an indicator that there are growing pains in the codebase, I think... so the arguments that something is fundamentally busted may be true. My wild ass guess is that there is a full internal rewrite in progress and that it is taking a lot longer than expected... as these things nearly always do. Perhaps there will be a 10.5 that is like 9.5 was: free and full of amazing features that prompt those holding back to happily upgrade. In the meantime I have nested groups which has already lead to two gigantic positive changes for my way of working...
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2018
    Saxer, pottering, AdamAlake and 3 others like this.
  14. InLight-Tone

    InLight-Tone Senior Member

    Dec 31, 2013
  15. paulmatthew

    paulmatthew Senior Member

    Feb 21, 2013
    Milwaukee, Wi
    I'm in a love hate relationship with Live . Things I like in 10 so far: It launches immensely faster than 9 . Able to select and edit and see multiple midi clips stacked on each other. It now plays all sounds when you press play instead of missing ends of pads or drone sounds where the notes start from the play point . The fades are now easier to work with . The drum bus is nice too. My favorite thing is probably the new utility which monos any track and can set mono freq for bass !!!

    Wavetable , meh , I'll stick to Serum and other vsts for that . Don't understand why they changed the automation lane workflow , I preferred the Live 9 way of doing things. Haven't tried Max devices yet so it sure about that .

    All in all it's a decent upgrade but not worth the money spent to get it. A lot of the new features are standard in most other DAWs but there's just something about Live that keeps me using it . This update per cost is going to be hit or miss depending on the user.
    jcrosby likes this.
  16. kitekrazy

    kitekrazy Senior Member

    Dec 23, 2008
    $299 for me to upgrade = I'll stick with Live 9 Suite for awhile. Over the holidays I bought the Reason 10 upgrade, Samplitude Pro Suite, Cubase Elements upgrade for about the same price. I could have gotten the Cubase crossgrade and some change left over to buy another elicenser. I like Live alot but at $299 I'll wait for a sale. Ableton is not generous at discounts. Even Propeller Head finally budged on their $129 upgrade and I bought that for $80.

    I think they should ditch the Suite and make everything as add ons. The Suite library has nothing new.

    $199 would be the most I'd give for it. For dance genres I will spend more time in FL Studio and v20 doesn't cost a thing. I leave the orange on the shelf for now and take the apple.
  17. kitekrazy

    kitekrazy Senior Member

    Dec 23, 2008
    I love the honesty in this. I loved what you did with it but I always found the screen real estate small for me without always having to magnify. Usually when a software company starts putting out its own hardware most of the updates become hardware related.

    I read where one user decide to upgrade to 10 and not the Suite 9- Suite 10 upgrade. All of the synths in it are easily replaceable. No need for Sampler when you have Kontakt.
  18. Daniel James

    Daniel James Senior Member

    Jan 9, 2008
    Group within groups was the only real thing that appealed to me. Not worth the $200+ upgrade for that though. I still have live 9 so I have access to all the other Live features you mentioned, this is to me is the first upgrade in a while I'm going to skip.

    jcrosby likes this.
  19. ironbut

    ironbut Senior Member

    Jun 9, 2015
    eugene or
    I do use Live 9 as a sketchpad sort of thing but I'm not that crazy about it.
    The upgrade price is too rich for what I use it for.
    I've heard that Wavetable is cool but I'd rather spend the money on Serum.
    I'll keep an eye on this thread though.
  20. MillsMixx

    MillsMixx Production Director/Sound Designer

    Jan 23, 2015
    So far I'm really liking it. I think this video does a really good job at describing all new features.

    There are a lot of subtle little features and workflow improvements that I wasn't aware of that seem to make a big difference for me. Chase midi is great! "Capture midi" of everything you just played even thou you didn't have the record button turned on is stellar! The browser improvements are so much better as you can rename stuff now! Even thou I don't really need another synth I think WaveTable is a pretty cool addition.

    The only real disappointment for me is the lack of multiple midi clip editing. What's the point of seeing the clips all together but not being able to edit them all at once? I think ableton really missed the boat on that one and hopefully it'll be addressed in a future update rather than have to wait for Version 11.

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