Kontakt - Sound artifacts when activating Send FXs

Discussion in 'KONTAKT: Sampling, Programming & Scripting' started by P.N., Oct 10, 2018.

  1. P.N.

    P.N. Senior Member

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    Aug 14, 2015
    Hi.

    Scenario: An FX chain that may present itself with group, bus, insert and send FXs.

    - Group (miscelaneous) FXs
    - Bus (miscelaneous and time based) FXs
    - Insert (miscelaneous and time based) FXs
    - Send with some (time based) FXs as well.

    Has anyone experience a severe audio artifact when, for example, bypassing and re-activating a reverb, delay or convolution in the send module?

    The 5.8.1 update stated:

    IMPROVED Wet & Dry sliders on many effects (e.g., Reverbs and Delays) would cause loud artefacts when used; control signal smoothing is now a lot more robust with artefacts greatly reduced.

    "Loud artifacts" sounds more or less like my experience, though i could probably define it better by calling it an explosion. Yes, it was not pretty...

    I assume these issues are related (even though i could only experience the issue when activating the send FX - either a delay, a reverb or a convolution).

    Also, some source modules are more severe than others (Tone Machine seemed worse in my specific chain(s)).

    I didn't update to version 5.8.1 yet, and i should probably do so to test it to see if it solves the issue.
    But this question relates to a project that's intended to be released in an earlier Kontakt version. And that's the problem here.

    Does anyone know of a safe way to create a FX chain that's stable and still allows for multiple time based FXs across different FX modules (group, bus, insert, send) at the same time?

    Thank you,
    Paulo.
     
  2. Tod

    Tod Senior Member

    Hi Paulo, I've got 2 convo-verbs in my Send Effects and I'm sending to them from the Insert Effects.

    I'm not experiencing any problems with the bypass or any of the controls at all. I've got the bypass set up with switches using an LED icon. I've also got 2 knobs for each convo-verb, one is the send level from Insert Effects and the other is for IR Size.

    I'm working with Kontakt 5.5.
     
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  3. OP
    OP
    P.N.

    P.N. Senior Member

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    Aug 14, 2015
    Hi, again, Tod.
    Thank you for testing it.

    But the thing is, this only seems to happen if the groups are routed through a bus. (and possibly a delay, conv, reverb combination?)
    I checked and, to a lesser extent, the issue is present no matter which FX are present in the bus.
    So, for the time, the buses in combination with sends and delays, reverbs or convs seem to be the culprits.

    If the groups are routed directly to the inserts, everything works fine here too.

    NI states some potencial issues, but the question is, is it the bus routing causing it?
    Are the IRs (i'm using custom IRs) causing it?
    They didn't state any more information of the potencial scenarious where the issue manifest itself.

    I guess i'll have to see what's the best way to proceed here.

    Thanks again, Tod.

    PS: Please, if anyone decides to test this type of FX chain (multiple delays, convolution, reverbs combined with the routing through buses), do so at absolute minimum sound levels.
    I'd hate for someone to blow up their speakers because of this... (yes, it's that bad).
    It's not worth it.
     
  4. Tod

    Tod Senior Member

    Does this happen when you adjust the actual FX controls or is it only when you adjust your scripted controls?
     
  5. EvilDragon

    EvilDragon KSP Wizard

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    Have a small monolith that showcases the problem?
     
  6. OP
    OP
    P.N.

    P.N. Senior Member

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    Aug 14, 2015
    Both. It's not a scripting issue.


    I'll build one later today. (If i'm permitted to include some of the custom IRs, i'll include those too).

    Thank you.
     
  7. EvilDragon

    EvilDragon KSP Wizard

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    Perhaps just use one of factory IRs, just as a showcase?
     
  8. Tod

    Tod Senior Member

    I checked it out yesterday with a drum instrument that used bus FX. I didn't have any convolution or delays but I added them to check this out, that's why I asked. I didn't have any problems with any bypasses or controls, they were very quiet.

    It almost sounds like something is building up and when you move a control or bypass, it lets go. This happens in Reaper when a tracks output goes above +12dB, the track automatically mutes. Then when I unmute it, there a very loud explosion type sound. But I've never encountered anything like that in Kontakt.
     
  9. OP
    OP
    P.N.

    P.N. Senior Member

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    Aug 14, 2015
    Here's a monolith - "Dangerous (Severe Audio Artifacts)".
    Totally unrelated but that would be a killer name for a product, though - well, not with these side effects.
    Ok, that's too many puns in one sentence, sorry.

    This was built in 5.7.0. (also tested in that version)

    This seems to be the worst case scenario. Tone Machine routed through a bus where time based effects are present.
    The situation extends to other source modules, even without passing through the buses (but keeping the buses with the same FX in the chain).

    So, the test is: Play a note (the higher the note, the most intensive the explosion), wait a second or so, and then turn on the Convolution in the Sends.

    Please be sure that your speakers are disconnected (or that you're 100% sure your volume is at an absolute minimum level.)
    The extreme clipping will be noticeable in Kontakt's main level meters.


    WARNING: Following the directions above may damage your speakers or your ears. Please have extreme caution.
     

    Attached Files:

  10. OP
    OP
    P.N.

    P.N. Senior Member

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    Aug 14, 2015
    Yes, the issue occurs with the factory's IRs too. Posted above, please be careful. We still don't know if i'm the only one affected by this.

    Thank you.

    It might just be me, it might be the version i was using to build/test it. Maybe specific instruments affect it more.
    I don't know...

    Thank you for testing, but, just in case, please be careful with this.
    When that thing goes, it goes. :eek:
     
  11. Tod

    Tod Senior Member

    I checked your nki out pretty good Paulo, no problems what so ever. I wiggled several controls and clicked on most of the bypass buttons, no sound emitted by that what so ever.

    Have you got any midi going to this?
     
  12. OP
    OP
    P.N.

    P.N. Senior Member

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    Aug 14, 2015
    Thanks, Tod.

    No, this happens in stand alone, just playing a note, letting it play, and activating one of the send FXs.
    I didn't test in vst mode.
    I also don't have any midi functionality going on.

    It's definitely something to think about if you don't have any issues.
    What's the version you used to test it?
     
  13. Tod

    Tod Senior Member

    I used 5.7 and since I could load your nki so it's probably the same as yours. Unfortunately my stand alone is 5.8, although I could try that.

    I've got all my VST dll Kontakt versions going back to 5.1 for the same reasons that you do, but since I use the VST versions to create my instruments, I've just let the stand alone update. I wished I'd have kept the older stand alones too.
     
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  14. EvilDragon

    EvilDragon KSP Wizard

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    Yep, I can get it over here.

    Turn on DC filter for Tone Machine, it's much safer then. Still a bit of a click but not a blast.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2018
    P.N. likes this.
  15. polypx

    polypx Complete Idiot

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    Yep, I get the bangs here too, in 5.8.
    I'm pretty sure I've heard something similar with certain snapshots, which I've then simply deleted because I figured something was wrong with the snapshot.
     
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  16. Tod

    Tod Senior Member

    Humm, what exactly are you doing to get that Mario, I can play the keys with the Send FX convo bypassed and when I unbypass it there is a definite thud, but not explosion.

    Other then that I'm not getting any sound when I mess with the various controls and bypasses.

    Oh and by the way, my stand alone is 7.1.
     
  17. OP
    OP
    P.N.

    P.N. Senior Member

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    Aug 14, 2015
    When playing higher on the scale, playing a few notes, letting them ring and while they're sounding, activating the conv will turn the thud into a bang. It's lot more intensive.

    Thank you everyone for the testing. I'll try the DC trick for Tone Machine, but the issue is still present in other source modules (to a degree).

    I guess i'll need to think about this chain, and if it's worth risking it.
     
  18. Tod

    Tod Senior Member

    Aah okay, that kind of makes sense, it appears to be building up. I wonder what would happen if you scripted it so that when the convo was bypassed, the input to the convo was also turned off to -infdB. Then when the bypass was turned on, the input volume would then resume it's prier level.
     
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  19. OP
    OP
    P.N.

    P.N. Senior Member

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    Aug 14, 2015
    That could be an option, but considering the amount of dB that builds up, it would be hard to completely mask the artifacts...
    Since this also happens with the delay (less severe but still prone to serious clipping) , the artifacts would come intermittently (based on the delay time), so i guess that would not work for the send delays.
    Some simpler chains might be possible - but it would be hard to test various combinations to see which ones work better.

    Thank you, Tod.
     

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