Kontakt 6, sampler in the cold?

[thereus]

Agreed. Falcon is definitely behind in many areas.

Yes, there are lots of developers working with Kontakt. Yes. Kontakt 6 does things they want. It still doesn't look like enough to me to bring the big devs back into the fold which is a shame. This is doubtless related to the costs of licenses also. NI is playing both sides which is no way to make a platform work. They risk slowly strangling their cash cow and it will be a long time before it dies, but everyone will have a lesser product on the way down.

The issue with Vienna licenses has been discissed on here many times so I won't start it off again. I will buy nothing else from them until they sort out the key replacement business.

Yes, for sound design it really is. CPU and RAM usage with DFD is higher than Kontakt's, tho, and library management in Falcon isn't particularly great (there's nothing like tag-based database like Kontakt has, for example).

Note that there are hundreds of Kontakt library devs out there. There are only a few of them that are large enough to break off with their own thing, so saying "so many" paints a wrong picture, I'd say.



This is exactly why K6 is a more developer-focused update, we got several things that were asked for years, like custom fonts, better spatial effects, certain other facilities, etc. I know a number of developers who are pretty happy with those additions.


You could ridicule Steve Ballmer all you want (me first!), but he was right about one thing. It's all about the developers (developers, developers, developers, developers...), when you have a platform.




Hmmm... Care to elaborate?

 

[EvilDragon]

This is doubtless related to the costs of licenses also.

Actually no, it's not. Spitfire is huge enough they can easily absorb the license cost, and I think Hendrik also posted somewhere that it wasn't a problem for them either, or the reason for them making their own sampler.

Licensing costs are only a problem for small developers, since it's a greater up-front risk which is solely absorbed by the developer. I do think this is a stance that should change at NI, and some people at NI are also very conscious about this, but we'll see what happens.

 

[kitekrazy]

I don't get the doom and gloom over Kontakt. I think they should also market what it can do for the average person instead of being a rompler. There are 3rd party tutorials but as NI is doing their own "how to" they should include Kontakt. As for synth type Kontakt libraries out there it is almost endless.

 

[puremusic]

The only beef I have with Kontakt is the tiny GUI. Spitfire's big knob and hieroglyphics is a strange goof for them, I'd prefer they stuck with Kontakt at this point rather than design everything with it. Yamaha made the same mistake with their Montage I wonder if this is some sort of trendy idea.

 

[INCIRIOS]

The only beef I have with Kontakt is the tiny GUI. Spitfire's big knob and hieroglyphics is a strange goof for them, I'd prefer they stuck with Kontakt at this point rather than design everything with it. Yamaha made the same mistake with their Montage I wonder if this is some sort of trendy idea.

People have been able to make larger UIs for quite some time with kontakt, the limitation on size isn't really an issue anymore, providing the developers doesn't mind putting in the time to update it.

 

[Saxer]

At least as AU (Audio Unit) on Mac Kontakt 6 need less CPU compared to Kontakt 5 in some libraries. There was a significant CPU difference between AU and VST in K5. But that's relevant for Logic users only. I got the update with Komplete.

 

[heisenberg]

There may not be many compelling reasons to move up to Kontakt 6 but for VEPro Template enthusiasts and as more & more libraries come out that are made for Kontakt 6 are released many of us will want to make the leap.

I hope that NI will have a summer sale on upgrades to the current Komplete series, so some of us can move up to their current software collection and call it day on Kontakt, Reaktor and Massive along with a bunch of other goodies.

Until then, I am reluctant to invest time improving my current master VEPro template. Kontakt 6 has to be in the stable so I can start the whole process over again.

 

[JohannesR]

There may not be many compelling reasons to move up to Kontakt 6 but for VEPro Template enthusiasts

Do you mind elaborating? Why is K6 attractive for VE Pro users?

 

[kb123]

When Kontakt 5 was first released there weren't many new features that set it apart from Kontakt 4. Fast forward several years and Kontakt 5 is in a different league to Kontakt 4.

Kontakt 6 may seem like it's only for developers, but it's just not the case. Much has changed under the hood to create a new base line that is more stable and more efficient than Kontakt 5 and this new baseline will form the basis for all the new stuff coming in Kontakt 6 during it's lifetime.

 

[Michael Antrum]

In practice though, so far as a know, there is no orchestral library that I can buy today that benefits from anything that beyond the state of the art of K5. And I have no idea how much this is likely to change in the next few years, or where the next significant step forward in sampling technology will come from.

Steinberg Iconica perhaps ?

 

[Alex Fraser]

OT and spitfire are at the very beginning of stepping outside the Kontakt ecosystem. OT is saying it’s explicitly because they want to push the envelope in orchestral sampling, while spitfire ... well while their marketing is for some reason studiously avoiding saying there will any benefit for high end users , it’s based on Hans Zimmer’s proprietary technology, and reading between the lines a bit, there’s every reason to hope that pushing the art of specifically orchestral sampling is also a driving force.

I'd imagine it boils down to money. With OT, stepping outside the Kontakt ecosystem will enable more buying choices (separate articulations) and put a storefront right in the middle of the DAW.

As for Spitfire..I'm not sure why the player exists. Perhaps it was an offshoot from the "labs" project, where SF would have wanted a way to get free stuff in the hands of users and not require "full" Kontakt.

 

[thereus]

Spitfire's tool seems to be way behind Kontakt in every important area, other than "style" if that's your thing. If this is what Hans has been hiding from us all this time, it appears to be just smoke and mirrors...

I'd much prefer to have the Spitfire choir in Kontakt, for instance.

The commercially available tools that we use really are state-of-the-art. We are very lucky to be making music at such a time. It might not be so for ever...

I'd imagine it boils down to money. With OT, stepping outside the Kontakt ecosystem will enable more buying choices (separate articulations) and put a storefront right in the middle of the DAW.

As for Spitfire..I'm not sure why the player exists. Perhaps it was an offshoot from the "labs" project, where SF would have wanted a way to get free stuff in the hands of users and not require "full" Kontakt.

 

[paoling]

Actually if you compare Kontakt 6 with the first release of Kontakt 5 the improvements are huge. Maybe they aren't really noticeable, but there were a lot of new features introduced (like real numbers) that have allowed for a wide array of cool features.

So Kontakt 6 may seem like a new version of Kontakt 5 with some new stuff appeared for the first time (as the Creator Tools, the new effects or the waveform synth).

I'd wish that the Kontakt model would change completely. By the way how many people actually bothers with the "under the hood" controls of Kontakt?

Why, instead of this "send it to us" and pay a lot of money scheme, Native Instruments can't release a complete package of tools to developers priced at 5.000$ or 10.0000$ that allows us to release any kind of library on our own that runs on the Kontakt Player?

It would be less hassle for NI, they would probably get the same money (updates to new versions of Kontakt will have a kind of upgrading scheme, so they would get a somewhat steady income from developers). And we would be free to release whatever we want being sure that any customer with just a DAW can run it on their system.

 

[LinusW]

Much has changed under the hood to create a new base line that is more stable and more efficient than Kontakt 5

Very much happened under the hood in 5.6.8 too.
I'm just saddened by that Kontakt UX had NI paint themselves into a corner to the point that developers would rather accept an inferior plugin than moving along with NI.

 

[Lindon]

You're right. I really just meant to say 1st party only, not open to 3rd parties.

Considering HISE's viability, I sure don't see a lot of it being used despite it being available for some time now...

then you are not looking...

 

[Lindon]

Actually no, it's not. Spitfire is huge enough they can easily absorb the license cost, and I think Hendrik also posted somewhere that it wasn't a problem for them either, or the reason for them making their own sampler.

Licensing costs are only a problem for small developers, since it's a greater up-front risk which is solely absorbed by the developer. I do think this is a stance that should change at NI, and some people at NI are also very conscious about this, but we'll see what happens.

Mario is 100% correct about this - the license costs (whilst large for smaller developers) is probably not the reason small developers are moving away from Kontakt. Installed base and pace of change are much more likely - and are certainly the major reasons we have for leaving Kontakt behind. let me expand:

1. Installed base. If I build a viable VST/AU/AAX plug-in (with all the associated issues in that) then I end up being able to attract a MUCH larger base of potential customers compared to building a viable FULL-Kontakt-based product. Yes I can pay the license fee for player (every time for every product - with the associated risks Mario points at) - and this become a bit nearer moot, but as there is now a path to this larger audience without these fees and risks then......you get the picture.

2. As the general "complaint" in this thread alludes to Kontakt development moves very very very slowly - and developer requests dont (normally) get much air-time. Sure K6 is a "developer" release - but really - new reverbs / a wave player ? What happened to loadable - unloadable group configs etc etc.?

Our take is we will build Kontakt instruments for our customers if that's what they want - but if they take our advice there are more viable alternatives available.

 

[EvilDragon]

Steinberg Iconica perhaps ?

No lossless compression of samples, no background loading...

Actually if you compare Kontakt 6 with the first release of Kontakt 5 the improvements are huge. Maybe they aren't really noticeable, but there were a lot of new features introduced (like real numbers) that have allowed for a wide array of cool features.

Real numbers were introduced in K5.6, not K6.

Why, instead of this "send it to us" and pay a lot of money scheme, Native Instruments can't release a complete package of tools to developers priced at 5.000$ or 10.0000$ that allows us to release any kind of library on our own that runs on the Kontakt Player?

It would be less hassle for NI, they would probably get the same money (updates to new versions of Kontakt will have a kind of upgrading scheme, so they would get a somewhat steady income from developers). And we would be free to release whatever we want being sure that any customer with just a DAW can run it on their system.

Because it's not as easy as that! Simply encoding to Kontakt Player is just one step in a huge process of around 80 steps that joins different parts of NI in order to put the library out on the market. Lots of databases, connections to marketing team, NKS validation, announcing it to Native Access for authorization, etc., all sorts of stuff happens. This all cannot be done by you as a 3rd party, that is why it's "send it to us".

then I end up being able to attract a MUCH larger base of potential customers compared to building a viable FULL-Kontakt-based product.

Do you have an idea how many installations of Kontakt there is out there in the world (and all of this is your potential customer base, technically)? You can't possibly top those numbers with a separate plugin on your first go at it unless you burn a helluva lot of money in marketing (which in turn ends up costing more than encoding for KP, and your platform might not be as stable as Kontakt is, etc.), and even then it might fail to reach that larger customer base you're alluding to. NI is an industry leader whatever anyone says, and their reach is among the largest out there. Probably only topped by Steinberg, Avid and Apple.

 

[Saxer]

NI is an industry leader whatever anyone says, and their reach is among the largest out there. Probably only topped by Steinberg, Avid and Apple.

Leader of the industry always have two sides. One side is to adore them. They worked hard to get into that position and they really have a lot to offer. On the other side industry leaders often try to defend their level with all the power their position contains. It's not as dangerous in our harmless business compared to the impact of Microsoft, Apple, Google, Nestlé, Monsanto etc... but dropping the import of other formats is one of those little steps.

 

[EvilDragon]

but dropping the import of other formats is one of those little steps.

Can still use K5 for that perfectly fine. Also, ask yourself what would be the reason for dropping such a feature. Could it be because an extreme minority of the userbase even used it, and it was a huge maintenance hassle for the dev team that took precious time from working on other things? Surely it cannot be anything reasonable like that, right?

 

[Saxer]

Also, ask yourself what would be the reason for dropping such a feature.?

My answer would be: You can't sell libraries that are imported from other platforms. NI is the mother of in app sales.