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Joe Kraemer dishes on the Hollywood system

Sometimes I worry the world is more than ever ranking the worth of people, and their opinions, by how much money they have. How much did Gandhi have, or MLK, or Mohammed or Jesus or the Buddha?

For that matter, how much did Mozart or Beethoven have?

I tell my kids not to buy into the world's values; they are mostly pretty terrible.

Of course you are right on your main point: it is goofy to claim that the only reason people try to do media music is for money.

So Much Easier

There are soooo many more predictable ways to pile up money than music. How many average people have made millions in real estate? Finance? You only need arithmetic for those and there are scads of those folk.

For someone willing to put the time in to learn specialised skills, IT is at least arguably more sure-fire than music. Not so sure about the millions-for-all, but a reasonable life.

Everything has its risks, but IDK any career more chancy than music except acting / performing, and the reason I see those as more risky is that actors can only fight their age and appearance so much. If you are 60, you're not going to look 20, no matter what your friends say.

I guess I think there's only one reason to write music: because you just want to.
Right on, John, well said as always!!
 
Sometimes I worry the world is more than ever ranking the worth of people, and their opinions, by how much money they have. How much did Gandhi have, or MLK, or Mohammed or Jesus or the Buddha?
I wasn’t really talking about money. Especially as a measure of someone’s worth. More so that I’m not an a list film composer and I was commenting and giving my opinion on what one has said so I’m not really sure why my opinion would mean anything in this context hence the “I’m a nobody” comment. Still, it is a public forum and without us filling it with conversation it would be a truly pointless place indeed.

I guess I think there's only one reason to write music: because you just want to.
Exactly.


Anyway, I bet Ghandi secretly had a shit load of money. Probably moonlighted as a burglar and kept it all in his mattress. 😂
 
Higher suicide rate of any profession.
Not sure if that is a joke, but I find that somewhat impossible.

In any event...

Compiled From his Twitter post:

This is just a reality check for people who dream of scoring movies in Hollywood: It is a cutthroat community of people who are in the business to get rich and famous. Writing music of any quality is secondary to that ultimate goal ) And keep in mind, being an artist is not a civil right - no one owes me anything, even the ex-friend who swindled me.
Maybe Joe is talking about Hollywood in general here, or the circles of people around music production?

It's hard to think of too many a-list composers who are or were very obviously cutthroat and avaricious.

It seems like the more common factors are a love of the art, exceptional work ethic, and exceptional people chops. That last one being far more important than any other factor.
 
I wasn’t really talking about money. Especially as a measure of someone’s worth. More so that I’m not an a list film composer and I was commenting and giving my opinion on what one has said so I’m not really sure why my opinion would mean anything in this context hence the “I’m a nobody” comment. Still, it is a public forum and without us filling it with conversation it would be a truly pointless place indeed.


Exactly.


Anyway, I bet Ghandi secretly had a shit load of money. Probably moonlighted as a burglar and kept it all in his mattress. 😂
When I am composing on a project, it's never about the money as my heart and passion rule the day!!
 
A lot of the stuff Joe Kraemer has said are things I completely agree with but the one thing that is irritating me is this...

Cut throat? Of course. The music business is horrendous. Long Plastic Hallway etc. But to say that everyone gets into film composing, is in it for money?

I think that’s such bullshit. How about some of these reasons?

Because they LOVE writing music?
They are huge fans of film and TV?
They love being apart of a story telling process?
They love working with Directors, Producers, writers and sharing and contributing to their vision?
They love the rush of attempting something so ambitious it seems impossible?

There are tons of reasons why but to say they are in it just for money and fame (fame!!!! 😂 That’s the funniest thing of all! Fame?! Not the best route to go if you want fame is it).

Anyway, yeah, money is so important and without it nothing happens but to be the only goal for a film composer? Sorry but I think that’s bullshit. Good news is, I’m a nobody so who cares what I think 😂
Nah, sorry man. In my experience, in LA, Joe is absolutely right. It’s a sad and difficult thing to accept and is one of the many disillusionments I’ve had to come to terms with, but everything Joe says is 100% correct.

That said, like most things, it’s complicated. It’s not like everyone starts out that way. Most start with your attitude. The existing system out here grinds peoples’ enthusiasm and passion down to a nub, and eventually those who make it have more or less universally realized that you have to play the game, talk the talk (as evidenced by the fact that they’ve made it). The cynicism out here is absolutely overwhelming at times. The lucky ones hold onto a part of the spark that got them into it, and many times it’s a matter of losing it and finding it again (I definitely went through that).

Edit: one note to add on your comment about fame. Yeah, objectively this is a horrible field to go into if you want fame. Most people can’t name a single film composer, and even if they can (probably HZ or JW), they likely won’t understand that we’re scoring to picture — most people seem to think that we’re just musicians writing music that the film is edited to.

It’s not fame. Perhaps a better word is “status.” In the LA reality distortion field, people whose names aren’t known within 20 miles of LA can seem like the biggest deal in the world to this town, and they certainly have the ego to go with it. It’s not world-wide fame by any degree, but within their bubble, it might as well be. If you can get your ass kissed everywhere you go, who cares if someone in middle America doesn’t know who you are? What matters is that it *feels* the same.

Yes, it’s stupid and petty, but if there’s anything that the last four years has taught me, it’s that there’s a lot of that going around.
 
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Nah, sorry man. In my experience, in LA, Joe is absolutely right. It’s a sad and difficult thing to accept and is one of the many disillusionments I’ve had to come to terms with, but everything Joe says is 100% correct.

That said, like most things, it’s complicated. It’s not like everyone starts out that way. Most start with your attitude. The existing system out here grinds peoples’ enthusiasm and passion down to a nub, and eventually those who make it have more or less universally realized that you have to play the game, talk the talk (as evidenced by the fact that they’ve made it). The cynicism out here is absolutely overwhelming at times. The lucky ones hold onto a part of the spark that got them into it, and many times it’s a matter of losing it and finding it again (I definitely went through that).

Edit: one note to add on your comment about fame. Yeah, objectively this is a horrible field to go into if you want fame. Most people can’t name a single film composer, and even if they can (probably HZ or JW), they likely won’t understand that we’re scoring to picture — most people seem to think that we’re just musicians writing music that the film is edited to.

It’s not fame. Perhaps a better word is “status.” In the LA reality distortion field, people whose names aren’t known within 20 miles of LA can seem like the biggest deal in the world to this town, and they certainly have the ego to go with it. It’s not world-wide fame by any degree, but within their bubble, it might as well be. If you can get your ass kissed everywhere you go, who cares if someone in middle America doesn’t know who you are? What matters is that it *feels* the same.

Yes, it’s stupid and petty, but if there’s anything that the last four years has taught me, it’s that there’s a lot of that going around.
Really interesting. I wonder if this is way more of an LA-centric thing in general. I’m in London, and most of the people I encounter in this business don’t seem to have those qualities. Even people I would expect to. Although, the industry is smaller here and it feels more like a cottage industry.

I’m happy to say that most people you meet along the way here are really drawn in by the work, not the money. Even the idea of ‘big money’ or ‘fame’ being synonymous with ‘composer’ is kinda funny. I can’t imagine a more painstaking way to become rich and famous.
 
Really interesting. I wonder if this is way more of an LA-centric thing in general. I’m in London, and most of the people I encounter in this business don’t seem to have those qualities. Even people I would expect to. Although, the industry is smaller here and it feels more like a cottage industry.

I’m happy to say that most people you meet along the way here are really drawn in by the work, not the money. Even the idea of ‘big money’ or ‘fame’ being synonymous with ‘composer’ is kinda funny. I can’t imagine a more painstaking way to become rich and famous.
Totally. And don't get me wrong -- there are some amazing people here too. But LA definitely has more ego than London, no doubt about it. Partially it's the size of the industry, partially it's the English self-deprecating humor, which on the whole America sorely lacks. I mean, just look at the stereotypes of LA and London. Stereotypes are never totally true, but they're always rooted in truth, and in LA's case, the "vapid/image-driven/shallow/money-obsessed/egotistical" stereotype is...more true than many other stereotypes, I think. I've always found Bojack Horseman fucking hilarious for that reason, because it cuts through all of those stereotypes better than anything else. It's basically written for people who work and live in "the industry."

Hans has pointed this out before on the forum: usually, it's the people in the middle who are the worst. Those at the top are often (not always) very grateful, talented, clearly deserve where they are. Those are the bottom are hungry and humble. Those in the middle, as Hans said, if I remember correctly..."that's where the sharks swim." In my (hilariously more limited than his) experience, he's absolutely spot-on.
 
Inevitably, our opinions about the industry, about Los Angeles, London, etc. are coloured by our own personal, highly anecdotal (and thus narrow) experience. I've met guys at the middle who are extremely cynical and talk misery, but there are other guys who are less so.

I think we have to decide for ourselves what kind of people we want to be. Faithful / unfaithful, give to charity / hog it all, make a sincere effort at being kind / blow up everyone around us.

It's corny but personally I think laughter is infectious, and compassion is too. If you speak to players or engineers or the Pro Tools operator courteously, you set a tone for your whole session.

Maybe if you act like a human, they'll even be glad to hear you're coming back to the studio?

Tough

Mind you, if this thread does one good thing, it's to remind everyone how mercilessly tough this industry is; no point in being unrealistic. So for some that might mean you cultivate a "Plan B," like making libraries or becoming some kind of Youtube personality, by teaching or something else.

For me though, I just can't stay away from music. It's a crazy choice and I know it can ruin your health and just about everything else if you let it, but I just like it and have never found anything else that sustains my interest the same way.
 
@AlexRuger I think you are onto something with this. I've had many nice conversations with Teddy Shapiro and he strikes me as exceptionally grounded and kind. Always friendly, and immensely talented. He's an A-lister plus. The same goes for Mark Isham. Had a lengthy chat with him a few years back about Mahler, gear, and jazz (FSM interview). Gabriel Yared is also one of the nicest humans I've ever met and we traded emails for years. I could list others too. All very nice. Generous with their time and knowledge.

I dealt with a mid to lower-level personality once (I'm not naming names, so please do not PM because I am not telling) and they were rude, unprofessional, and condescending. It struck me at the time because I had nothing but amazing dealings with the A-list composers. Hell, even HZ was kind enough to reply to an FSM interview request a few years back. Given the magazine has done nothing but savage the guy, he could have told me to F*** myself, but he was very diplomatic and nice (I would like to point out that throughout this thread did I ever mention HZ in a disparaging manner... it was never about him).
 
@dcoscina for sure, all good points. However, I wouldn't be so quick to judge people based on how nice they are when you approach them for a chat. People can be great that way and a nightmare to work with/for. That's part of playing the game -- being nice and affable publicly-facing, but then you might turn around and treat the people who work for you like hot garbage. Not saying that's standard or common, but that too happens.

The fact is, people can stand to make a lot of money in this industry, especially those exploiting (in the legal sense, not the negative sense) the works of the people writing the music.

To be clear, I'm speaking in much more broad terms than just composers. I'm talking the whole system. Executives, agents, producers, managers...the whole shebang. And where there's money, there's politics, status, ego...it's not just music, not just media. It's just human nature. We're all insecure babies trying to convince ourselves of some semblance of greatness before we die, and unfortunately that can bring out a whole bunch o' bullshit. Shrug.
 
usually, it's the people in the middle who are the worst. Those at the top are often (not always) very grateful, talented, clearly deserve where they are. Those are the bottom are hungry and humble. Those in the middle, as Hans said, if I remember correctly..."that's where the sharks swim." In my (hilariously more limited than his) experience, he's absolutely spot-on.
And yet all I said was it is bullshit for someone to say EVERYONE is in it for the money and fame. I said that because it is bullshit. Not everyone is in it for money and fame. Unless all “those at the top who are often very grateful, talented, clearly deserve where they are” doing it just for money and fame too. Is Hans in it just for money and fame? Is John Powell in it for money and fame? How about Ramin Djawadi, Thomas Newman or Alexander Desplat? Sorry man, but I think it’s nonsense. Wouldn’t be surprised if the composers I just listed would be offended by even suggesting they were in it for money and fame. And yeah, definitely complicated as you have said.

I appreciate you chiming in Alex as you have a wealth of experience compared to me but I just don’t agree with that aspect of what Joe said. You can’t just tarnish everyone with the same brush. If he said “the industry is full of disgusting fucking sharks and you find them all swimming everywhere but you especially find them in the middle of the business, feeding off the desperate and hungry whilst simultaneously circling round the gatekeepers feet desperately felching the teets of any a listers hoping to be let into their kingdoms” I wouldn't disagree in the slightest 😂. But he didn’t say that. He said everyone is in it for money and fame.

This is so true...
However, I wouldn't be so quick to judge people based on how nice they are when you approach them for a chat. People can be great that way and a nightmare to work with/for. That's part of playing the game -- being nice and affable publicly-facing, but then you might turn around and treat the people who work for you like hot garbage.
Anyway, I pretty much agree with everything you have said. I just think it’s stupid to tarnish people with the same brush.

Oh, and cynicism. And if anyone needs a lesson in cynicism, I could probably make a good living if there was a way to charge for such lessons. Needless to say, unless you personally know me, I do a very good job hiding that stuff because people get so upset by everything these days. And I’m English, so I can’t help it. 😂

Ps Wasn’t there a VIC post recently saying the quality of posts have declined round these parts recently? Well, no need for a pat on the back but good job people! Good job! 😂
 
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