What's new

Is it worth finding a private tutor for addressing more complex music theory question like these?

rmak

Senior Member
So I came across this really cool string quartet composition on YouTube using Berlin first chair in staffpad (you'll have to click on the link to go to YouTube to view) -

I was curious about what was going on with the harmony in this piece. I posted a comment in the YouTube video to inquire about it, but I thought I would just make a thread here to see if anyone has any input on the matter. Im trying to move away from staying within one key to make things more interesting while writing and utilizing accidentals for simple mixtures, modulations, augmented chords, and other topics mentioned in the recent scoreclub subscription I had.

I have some understanding of what's going on in some parts of the composition, like in the beginning, the harmony goes E min to B min and then switches to D min and A min with the naturals (about 30 seconds in). I was guessing that this is an example of a modulation. Throughout the piece, there are quite a lot of accidentals, and it is hard for me to figure out the harmony and what the thinking is behind the composer.

Does anyone think it is worth it for me to find a private tutor to sit down with to go over stuff like this and to facilitate me writing some pieces utilizing more complex harmonies. I would very much want to write this way more naturally, and maybe this doesn't necessarily mean I need to understand all the music theory. Maybe a lot of it is just voice leading? In this particular piece, it is a lot like SATB, and maybe the composer is just leading with each line?

If anyone is thinks a private tutor may be a good idea, what are some good resources for that? I was just going to maybe put a post on craigslist or ask the staff at guitar center haha.


Thanks,
Ricky
 
Last edited:
You can't reverse engineer the composer's thinking by looking at the end result, unless you have an intimate knowledge of that composer's workflow and thought process.
 
You can't reverse engineer the composer's thinking by looking at the end result, unless you have an intimate knowledge of that composer's workflow and thought process.
I'm not necessarily trying to reverse engineer, but that is a good point. I am just trying to find a way to best learn more complex harmonies. I want to take away some of the guessing or trial and error whenever I move away from the key signature.
 
I like the piece.

Some would contend that the key sig shouldn't be there while others would contend otherwise. First world problems. I don't get into the middle of such debates.

To your question, I don't know what teachers you may be able to find, but for this type of piece the go-to approach is to use pitch class set theory. Just about any book on 20th Century harmonic practice other than the Persichetti will (or should) cover this. I introduced myself to it by way of a book by Allen Forte called The Harmonic Organization of The Rite of Spring, then moved on from there. I'll recommend more and say why if you want more.
Thanks for sharing. I actually have the Persichetti book haha. That's too bad. That's the first I heard of pitch class set theory. I'll look into that book by Allen Forte. I hope it's not a very heavy book. I'm trying to apply/practice instead of studying and getting buried in too much music theory. I had a subscription to scoreclub, and I am hoping some of the notes I took down from the advanced tonal harmony module will help me. I plan to review them more, but it is a hard thing to connect concept to its application in the YouTube composition above.
 
That is worth finding a good teacher. If you want to write a piece, the composer teacher is more about inspiring you. If you go to youtube and find a composer youtube you like and contact him/her to see if he/she can provide you lessons.
 
You could check out MITA's free course "Composition from Scratch".
https://musicintervaltheory.academy/composition-from-scratch/?fbclid=IwAR3lycfAPTaUDUr0_Lk8e7JbqbAKI50wZt18h7cfFx0sWnMrb7DzKC-0hA0
There is another course called "Portals" that I found very interesting that's available which you could check out with just a monthly membership trial. I just recently joined but have found MITA to be a very refreshing and valuable resource of ideas and a community of interesting composers.
 
I just found this. Looks really good:

The Forte is thin, but a bit of a slow reader since you have to stop on every page and study the Stravinsky excerpt against what he's saying about it.

Before you spend any money maybe you should determine whether you can relate to set theory in the first place. Some like it; some don't. I just found the following free resource, solid info:


I don't know what else you may already have, but you might look into the Kostka book (Materials and Techniques of 20th Century Music), the Cope book (Techniques of the Contemporary Composer) which is similar to the Kostka, the Francoli book (Understanding Post-tonal Music), and the one by Ton De Leeuw (Music of the 20th Century). All except for the De Leeuw book include coverage of set theory, but they're not only about that. The last one is a little more casual but very informative and a really enjoyable read.
Thanks for sharing about this. It is interesting. I am reading about it, and it sounds like its a system that categorizes pitches into numbers that then are categorized into prime forms whose interval vectors define its sound. I just watched this YT video of someone using pitch class set to composer -

It's interesting. Maybe it will be worth while for me to look into it. I imagine it may take some time to familiarize or become proficient with this system. Was that the case for you? Do you find yourself caught up or slowed down in some of the math involved when transposing or when you are rearranging numbers around?

Thanks again.
 
You could check out MITA's free course "Composition from Scratch".
https://musicintervaltheory.academy/composition-from-scratch/?fbclid=IwAR3lycfAPTaUDUr0_Lk8e7JbqbAKI50wZt18h7cfFx0sWnMrb7DzKC-0hA0
There is another course called "Portals" that I found very interesting that's available which you could check out with just a monthly membership trial. I just recently joined but have found MITA to be a very refreshing and valuable resource of ideas and a community of interesting composers.
I just signed up for MITA free course! Thanks for suggesting!
 
I've been going through the MITA free course (Thanks @synergy543), and this is my progress so far in staffpad. There's a lot of new content that I learned through the free course like utilizing the pentatonic scales embedded within the lydian mode for harmony, chromatic motors in harmony, and utilizing interval pattern to guide writing the melodic line (e.g.: 1, 4, 1, 4 etc...). The track below is about a minute. I plan to do day 5 next which covers orchestration.

I find writing the harmony a bit challenging. I am trying to write more in staffpad and not rely on piano so much. I find myself going to the keyboard to figure out what chords work by trial and error, or sometimes, I might go 3 or 4 semitones down from the melodic line as a starting point. I thought I would share in case there are any beginner considering this course. I am also open to any constructive criticism from forum members. For this piece, I am just trying to write without judging myself too much, otherwise I would never get any writing done at all! It's a work in progress; I am still figuring out the harmony for bar 15 to 25.

 
Sounds great! That is a good plan to just keep writing and not be too judgemental to facilitate the learning process. It's clearly working so far. It's good to learn to hear what your writing in your mind's ear and occasionally if you need, go back and get your bearings from the keyboard. JW, in one of his interviews, suddenly sings out a line in solfege (so that's how he does it). So solfege is one way to learn although I always have difficulty with non-tonal music and solfege although there are various solutions to this problem you can learn. I look forward to hearing the rest of your piece, particularly your orchestration. It's a fun little exercise that got me moving along as well (my ex. is posted in the bonus material).

Be sure to listen to Marc Bercovitz's tutorial video examples in the bonus section. This is an absolute gem! Marc shows so many different orchestration possibilities of contrast and color with just his two examples. Marc is a master orchestrator and it's an honor that he is sharing his techniques and vision with us. Have fun!
 
Last edited:
Try Hindemith's books on composition and theory; they are interval-driven, which the piece you referenced has a lot of those ideas in them. EIS does this, too, and MITA, but they're an actual "course" with instructors and weekly assignments (and rates). It might be a nice "toe dip" to start with Hindemith, investing only 40 to 50 dollars for the books, and using that as your jumping off point.

Having said that, many composers have had great success and enjoyment learning MITA and/or EIS for this type of music, so that's something to look into as well.

Mike
 
Try Hindemith's books on composition and theory; they are interval-driven, which the piece you referenced has a lot of those ideas in them. EIS does this, too, and MITA, but they're an actual "course" with instructors and weekly assignments (and rates). It might be a nice "toe dip" to start with Hindemith, investing only 40 to 50 dollars for the books, and using that as your jumping off point.

Having said that, many composers have had great success and enjoyment learning MITA and/or EIS for this type of music, so that's something to look into as well.

Mike

I was asking someone about EIS before. I didn’t know that it was comparable to MITA. I know with EIS, you have to do it via private instruction to cover a series of books, and it is a long term commitment that is more heavily focused on composition than orchestration. The person I messaged has been taking lessons with EIS for 3 years, and he claims it has changed the way he writes dramatically. The cost also does seem higher for EIS than MITA since they charge private instruction by the hour I think. Have you done both EIS and MITA? Do you have any thoughts on how they compare? Thanks

I was also curious what kind of music you have in mind when you say “this kind of music.” Do you mean music that does not have a “pop” feel to it since things are not always diatonic with this sort of writing. Are these interval subject courses useful for all genres of music?
 
Last edited:
I was asking someone about EIS before. I didn’t know that it was comparable to MITA. I know with EIS, you have to do it via private instruction to cover a series of books, and it is a long term commitment that is more heavily focused on composition than orchestration. The person I messaged has been taking lessons with EIS for 3 years, and he claims it has changed the way he writes dramatically. The cost also does seem higher for EIS than MITA since they charge private instruction by the hour I think. Have you done both EIS and MITA? Do you have any thoughts on how they compare? Thanks

I was also curious what kind of music you have in mind when you say “this kind of music.” Do you mean music that does not have a “pop” feel to it since things are not always diatonic with this sort of writing. Are these interval subject courses useful for all genres of music?
I have not done MITA, but I'm a graduate of EIS and an instructor, so i can talk about EIS. There is a thread long ago, where one of the founders of MITA discusses how MITA is different than EIS, I encourage you to check it out. Both courses do use the ideas of Intervals in their compositional format (Equal Interval System, Musical Interval Theory Academy), so there is that similarity.

Regarding "This kind of music"; I'm speaking of the piece you originally referenced in your post. (The Green Turban). The motion from an E root center to a D root center, for examples, as an intervallic, rather than tonal modulation; the opening gestures in the violin, which are derived from the intervallic contour, rather than from a scale, etc. Any music that generates its' content from intervallic strategies, rather than a modal or diatonic scalar point.

Absolutely, these interval subject courses are useful for all types of music. I use it to write multiple different genres. Again, I was responding to your original post, where you asked "what options would I have, if I wanted to learn to write in this style?". In my opinion, Hindemith, MITA, and EIS should all be good choices, for that kind of exploration.

Mike
 
I have not done MITA, but I'm a graduate of EIS and an instructor, so i can talk about EIS. There is a thread long ago, where one of the founders of MITA discusses how MITA is different than EIS, I encourage you to check it out. Both courses do use the ideas of Intervals in their compositional format (Equal Interval System, Musical Interval Theory Academy), so there is that similarity.

Regarding "This kind of music"; I'm speaking of the piece you originally referenced in your post. (The Green Turban). The motion from an E root center to a D root center, for examples, as an intervallic, rather than tonal modulation; the opening gestures in the violin, which are derived from the intervallic contour, rather than from a scale, etc. Any music that generates its' content from intervallic strategies, rather than a modal or diatonic scalar point.

Absolutely, these interval subject courses are useful for all types of music. I use it to write multiple different genres. Again, I was responding to your original post, where you asked "what options would I have, if I wanted to learn to write in this style?". In my opinion, Hindemith, MITA, and EIS should all be good choices, for that kind of exploration.

Mike
I completely agree with Farkle. I have done both, I am a MITA Graduate and instructor and I studied EIS with the regretted David Blumberg before he passed away. Both focus on the intervals as their main program. If I remember EIS has 226 lessons or so as MITA has 56 lessons but they can't compare.

You need more time to study on each MITA Lesson as starting from Lesson 9 you have each time to make tons of exercices and finish the work by gathering, sketching your composition and orchestrating, many times for full orchestra.

EIS has shorter Lessons wich mostly ask you to write small little pieces for treble and bass keys, excepted for some Lessons towards the end but it was a great time studying the concept of Intervals.

MITA is more turned about to teach you tools for mostly writing TV Shows, Cartoons, Animation Shows and Featured Movies, it is why they push hard on orchestral writing. For my graduation I was asked to write a 20 minutes Piano Concerto with a full Orchestra, but it could be another important piece.

MITA is less expensive especially for you have far less lessons but that doesn't mean it is not as good as EIS, it is simply different and you can submit for video lessons or pay coins for one to one lessons or correction of your works.

To conclude, as wisely said Farkle, Hindemith, MITA and EIS should all be good choices, you just need to see what are your goals, motivations and how much work you want to put in your learning in order to succeed. Try to visit the websites, ask questions here and there, and follow your intuitions.
 
I completely agree with Farkle. I have done both, I am a MITA Graduate and instructor and I studied EIS with the regretted David Blumberg before he passed away. Both focus on the intervals as their main program. If I remember EIS has 226 lessons or so as MITA has 56 lessons but they can't compare.

You need more time to study on each MITA Lesson as starting from Lesson 9 you have each time to make tons of exercices and finish the work by gathering, sketching your composition and orchestrating, many times for full orchestra.

EIS has shorter Lessons wich mostly ask you to write small little pieces for treble and bass keys, excepted for some Lessons towards the end but it was a great time studying the concept of Intervals.

MITA is more turned about to teach you tools for mostly writing TV Shows, Cartoons, Animation Shows and Featured Movies, it is why they push hard on orchestral writing. For my graduation I was asked to write a 20 minutes Piano Concerto with a full Orchestra, but it could be another important piece.

MITA is less expensive especially for you have far less lessons but that doesn't mean it is not as good as EIS, it is simply different and you can submit for video lessons or pay coins for one to one lessons or correction of your works.

To conclude, as wisely said Farkle, Hindemith, MITA and EIS should all be good choices, you just need to see what are your goals, motivations and how much work you want to put in your learning in order to succeed. Try to visit the websites, ask questions here and there, and follow your intuitions.
I will probably go with MITA because it is more affordable. I enjoyed the free lesson and have read nothing negative about it on here. I am hoping the lessons included in the academy will include application of concepts similar to the free lesson; that you practice/apply as you go. I like that. There isn't too much detail as to how orchestration is covered in the outline on the website, but I imagine it'll be covered.
 
MITA is something I am also considering in the future. First I need to keep learning the basics, plus I have already bought loads of courses, so I need to give them a go first.
 
MITA is something I am also considering in the future. First I need to keep learning the basics, plus I have already bought loads of courses, so I need to give them a go first.
Do it. It'll be nice to see what you get out of the course. It's nice to share progress with one another as we learn. I sometimes hate doing all this by myself.
 
Do it. It'll be nice to see what you get out of the course. It's nice to share progress with one another as we learn. I sometimes hate doing all this by myself.
@Blackster has mentioned that they have a good community there which would be important to me. The only thing I don't like about this hobby is that it is a solo thing (obviously during a pandemic this has been a useful thing). I am use to bouncing ideas off others as a way of being creative.
 
I will probably go with MITA because it is more affordable. I enjoyed the free lesson and have read nothing negative about it on here. I am hoping the lessons included in the academy will include application of concepts similar to the free lesson; that you practice/apply as you go. I like that. There Iisn't too much detail as to how orchestration is covered in the outline on the website, but I imagine it'll be covered.
I think MITA will be a great choice for you; from the free resources I've seen, the course seems to be laid out very well, with a lot of practical advice and strategies to compose quickly, and professionally. I've been impressed with the final products that students and graduates have presented. I think also, it being a bit "shorter" means you can run with it more quickly. But, as Marco said above, shorter doesn't mean "worse". The pieces that I've heard from MITA students are well crafted, full of emotional content, and very cool to listen to.

Honestly, the most important thing is... Write! Whatever you are studying, put it into practice!
 
I completely agree with Farkle. I have done both, I am a MITA Graduate and instructor and I studied EIS with the regretted David Blumberg before he passed away. Both focus on the intervals as their main program. If I remember EIS has 226 lessons or so as MITA has 56 lessons but they can't compare.

You need more time to study on each MITA Lesson as starting from Lesson 9 you have each time to make tons of exercices and finish the work by gathering, sketching your composition and orchestrating, many times for full orchestra.

EIS has shorter Lessons wich mostly ask you to write small little pieces for treble and bass keys, excepted for some Lessons towards the end but it was a great time studying the concept of Intervals.

MITA is more turned about to teach you tools for mostly writing TV Shows, Cartoons, Animation Shows and Featured Movies, it is why they push hard on orchestral writing. For my graduation I was asked to write a 20 minutes Piano Concerto with a full Orchestra, but it could be another important piece.

MITA is less expensive especially for you have far less lessons but that doesn't mean it is not as good as EIS, it is simply different and you can submit for video lessons or pay coins for one to one lessons or correction of your works.

To conclude, as wisely said Farkle, Hindemith, MITA and EIS should all be good choices, you just need to see what are your goals, motivations and how much work you want to put in your learning in order to succeed. Try to visit the websites, ask questions here and there, and follow your intuitions.
Ahh, I wish I had met Blumberg, he was a great composer, and apparently, a really nice guy.

Marco, that's great to hear that MITA has that targeted approach towards cinematic, orchestral composing. I think EIS is more tuned towards arrangers, although you can certainly use it to score film and television (I use it all the time).

I like how Frank starts with triads in the free, public lessons, as I think that gives more orchestral freedom from sketch to orchestra. Also, I think he does a good job of talking about the story and emotions that a composer should be thinking of before he starts. It's clearly a well thought out program, and effective.

Long and short is, They're both great, and whichever one inspires you to compose, and gives you the tools to compose; that's the one to go with. As Spud said, "Write like Mad"!

Best,

Mike
 
Top Bottom