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Illegal distribution of our music!

Thomas Chabalier:
(Original)
(Stolen version)

References to supposedly copyrighted titles such as in "Epic Mickey", which refers to Mickey Mouse, in the original title of one of the pieces by a composer friend, has been changed to "Epic Love".

That's a great track!

But I feel like I'm not getting the full picture here. Did Thomas compose that track for the game "Epic Mickey"? If so it would already have been copyrighted by disney I'd imagine and I don't know if he would be allowed to upload it to soundcloud in the first place. If it is an original composition of his that isn't affiliated with Disney in any way, then I would have thought that using the title "Epic Mickey" constitutes a violation of trademark law, and using the image of Mickey Mouse is a violation of Copyright law?! Either way I'm confused and have a feeling I'm missing some information to make sense of this.

I googled to find out if Epic Mickey is still trademarked and here it says the trademark is "abandoned":

What does that mean? Can the term "Epic Mickey" now be used freely again? Why did the trademark enter this status? Did they forget to re-file the paperwork or something like that?
 
Hello, stay calm, Rory. Life's too short, don't overthink.

There's nothing to overthink. This guy made a blatantly false accusation against another forum participant and doesn't have the class to apologise or even withdraw it.

Tells me everything I need to know about him.
 
I can verify, Thomas Chabalier is a tremendous talent; he got his music stolen. He worked for me on a few occasions. There is an ongoing situation, and it's the tip of the iceberg. Technology has yet to catch up with the so-called online distribution of stolen materials.

Yeah man, first of all thank you for your post! Exactly, Thomas is a superior composer. We've get to know each other the year he won the first prize at the European Young Talent award. The prize was a recording with the magnificent WDR Funkhausorchester in Cologne. The composition "Epic Mickey" is actually one of the recordings made in this recording session.

I do advise you, Pascal, just seek legal advice and engage the distributor directly. Other than that, don't worry about YouTube, they will not be able to monetize it yet, just checked the link. But do seek a takedown on all distribution platforms.

Moving forward, please do write more fantastic music and be prepared to let go and cover up some patches. Speaking from experience, this happens to A - Z list of composers all the time. Therefore, be very careful when you upload your music on platforms like Soundcloud, Youtube & any social media, be ready to bear the consequences.
Yes, that's what we plan to do. But at the same time we also want to find as many composers as possible who are affected as well. The next time I upload something, I will register it with my POR and distribute it via Distrokid including content ID, so that it can't be stolen anymore.
But it's really a shame. When I started composing film music years ago and sharing it with others for free via Soundcloud, I didn't think about anyone coming along and stealing it.

Thanks again for these wise words. Cheers!
 
That's a great track!
Yes. Epic Mickey is a really great track! As I told you before, Thomas had the opportunity to record a few compositions with orchestra as part of the prize he won on the Soundtrack Cologne.

But I feel like I'm not getting the full picture here. Did Thomas compose that track for the game "Epic Mickey"? If so it would already have been copyrighted by disney I'd imagine and I don't know if he would be allowed to upload it to soundcloud in the first place. If it is an original composition of his that isn't affiliated with Disney in any way, then I would have thought that using the title "Epic Mickey" constitutes a violation of trademark law, and using the image of Mickey Mouse is a violation of Copyright law?! Either way I'm confused and have a feeling I'm missing some information to make sense of this.
So the composition "Epic Mickey" is originally by Thomas. Recorded 2018 in Cologne. The composition itself has nothing to do with Disney. I would have to ask Thomas, but I think he was only inspired by the computer game and therefore gave the composition the title. Only the title of the song is a direct reference, his music refers at maximum stylistically to that from Epic Mickey. And as far as I know, it is no violation of copyright law to deal with a topic artistically and to refer to it in the title.
The copyright infringment I'm talking about is that someone downloaded his Soundcloud music, for example the track "Epic Mickey" and distributed it illegaly without any permission under an alias. And it's not just his music that got violated, it's the music of many others. The albums you can access via YouTube Music are compilation of music that has been stolen from different composers on Soundcloud.

What does that mean? Can the term "Epic Mickey" now be used freely again? Why did the trademark enter this status? Did they forget to re-file the paperwork or something like that?
Damn, it seems like it's no longer a trademark because someone didn't filed the statement of use. But I don't know, what it means.
 
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I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice, just my 2 cents.

So the composition "Epic Mickey" is originally by Thomas. Recorded 2018 in Cologne. The composition itself has nothing to do with Disney. I would have to ask Thomas, but I think he was only inspired by the computer game and therefore gave the composition the title. Only the title of the song is a direct reference, his music refers at maximum stylistically to that from Epic Mickey. And as far as I know, it is no violation of copyright law to deal with a topic artistically and to refer to it in the title.

He could have named it "Epic journey of a mouse", that would have been legal imho. To me it looks like he picked the term to associate his work with the intellectual property of Disney. The soundcloud page could be seen as part of his professional porfolio/advertisement, making it a commercial use, even if he makes no money from it directly. And "Epic Mickey" was filed as a trademark - at least for a time. Add to that the image of Mickey Mouse it makes it clear that he didn't pick the title by coincidence. It is my impression that trademark law exists to prevent exactly this kind of behaviour. Afaik in the US trademark law there are legal incentives to actively defend your trademark against infringements or you risk losing it. And I don't see how he could claim fair use on this. Also fair use isn't a right, it's a defense, it doesn't prevent you from getting sued, it's something you use to minimize damage after being sued, but once you're in a legal battle you're already paying a price. I would advise against doing stuff like this. In reality many things are legally not clear cut and will need to be decided by a judge, but I would always err on the side of caution with these things.


There was a case where someone got sued for throwing a Pokemon themed party:


Regarding the use of the image of mickey, which I think falls under copyright law, not trademark law, as far as I can tell... I think that's just illegal, both in Germany and the US. You can't just take someone else's creation and use it for your own purpose, the same way others can't just take your music and use it however they want.

I really don't want to be a dick here, but it irritates me to see composers just taking pictures to advertise their music with, when clearly they don't have the rights to those pictures. It's not even a rare occurrence. But I hope over time it will get rarer and there will be more of a consensus of "you can't just do that" among musicians. There are many many images on the web that are under permissive licenses that allow you to just use them (whether you can be sure the original creators released them under that license is another story).



The copyright infringment I'm talking about is that someone downloaded his Soundcloud music, for example the track "Epic Mickey" and distributed it illegaly without any permission under an alias. And it's not just his music that got violated, it's the music of many others. The albums you can access via YouTube Music are compilation of music that has been stolen from different composers on Soundcloud.

That's both illegal and morrally corrupt on many levels imo. I'm really sorry it happened to him and others!

A while ago there was a musician who released some old demo tape of his for free on youtube and then the same happened to him and someone registered the work as their own. Absolute scumbag move.

I was planning to make a blackmetal album one day and when trying to figure out a way through the maze of German tax laws I was at the point where I thought "ah, fuck it, no one's gonna buy it anyway, might just as well throw it online for free". But then I thought about how pissed off I would be when someone else registers it in their name. It's not even about the money, it would just feel like such a violation and injustice, I'd take it personal. I wouldn't do that with the album being pirated, that's inevitable (or rather if no one cares enough to pirate it, I'd probably take that personal in another way). So I genuinely do symphathize a lot with all that have been affected by this already!

I think it's good that you made the thread and helped get the info out there, so that people have this on their radar and can make informed decision about how they release their music in the future.
Sadly I can't think of a satisfactory immediate solution to that problem though :(.
 
There's nothing to overthink. This guy made a blatantly false accusation against another forum participant and doesn't have the class to apologise or even withdraw it.

Tells me everything I need to know about him.

Best to talk to each other private. I can't remedy this. But let's keep the good water flowing.
 
He could have named it "Epic journey of a mouse", that would have been legal imho. To me it looks like he picked the term to associate his work with the intellectual property of Disney. The soundcloud page could be seen as part of his professional porfolio/advertisement, making it a commercial use, even if he makes no money from it directly. And "Epic Mickey" was filed as a trademark - at least for a time. Add to that the image of Mickey Mouse it makes it clear that he didn't pick the title by coincidence. It is my impression that trademark law exists to prevent exactly this kind of behaviour. Afaik in the US trademark law there are legal incentives to actively defend your trademark against infringements or you risk losing it. And I don't see how he could claim fair use on this. Also fair use isn't a right, it's a defense, it doesn't prevent you from getting sued, it's something you use to minimize damage after being sued, but once you're in a legal battle you're already paying a price. I would advise against doing stuff like this. In reality many things are legally not clear cut and will need to be decided by a judge, but I would always err on the side of caution with these things.
I can't speak for Thomas. And I would like to ask you not to open another barrel here in the comments by referring to such a trifle and completely missing the point. I was referring to the fact that titles apparently protected by copyright or related to other authors were replaced by the thieves. Other titles like my composition "Challenge Me (Demo)" were completely taken over, including "Demo". However, the title that contained "Tuf Voyaging", a composition based on the book of the same name by George R.R. Martin, was completely changed to 'Die To Shine'.


I was planning to make a blackmetal album one day and when trying to figure out a way through the maze of German tax laws I was at the point where I thought "ah, fuck it, no one's gonna buy it anyway, might just as well throw it online for free". But then I thought about how pissed off I would be when someone else registers it in their name. It's not even about the money, it would just feel like such a violation and injustice, I'd take it personal. I wouldn't do that with the album being pirated, that's inevitable (or rather if no one cares enough to pirate it, I'd probably take that personal in another way). So I genuinely do symphathize a lot with all that have been affected by this already!
Exactly! It's not even that much about the money. It's also about the fact that if I now upload my music to YouTube to earn money with it, because of the registration by the people behind it, I'm not allowed to monetize my videos with my music anymore.

Sadly I can't think of a satisfactory immediate solution to that problem though :(.
I am now very curious how the distributor will react and whether they will refuse to take the content off the net. After all, we are not only talking about YouTube.
 
In fact there is the possibility to report a copyright infringement to YouTube. However, YouTube has forwarded us to the distributor because YouTube does not feel responsible for this.


In my case, fortunately, only two titles are affected. There are other composers who have probably been far worse off. We're talking at least 10 albums with a total of over 70 titles of stolen music. My music that has been stolen is unfortunately not published at a music library. Often these libraries already pass on the titles to the Content ID System, so that an upload can be directly blocked or marked and not monetized.
We have now contacted La Cupula Music and hope that they will acknowledge the copyright infringement and take the music off the net by themselves. But our main concern is to make everyone else out there aware of this fact and that we may have only discovered the tip of an iceberg.


Yes, a lawsuit could be very expensive. It's time for a legal expenses insurance, haha. :emoji_hear_no_evil:
I've had this happen. Rather than making a big deal out of it, it's easier to just claim the videos, so that you will receive the income from any streams.
 
I've had this happen. Rather than making a big deal out of it, it's easier to just claim the videos, so that you will receive the income from any streams.
Unfortunately, it's not that simple. Besides YouTube the distribution takes place on Amazon Music, Apple Music, Spotify, Deezer, Napster and many other platforms. And as the author the respective person of the released album claims to be the author. This person has transferred his not existing rights of use to SonoSuite, which is now responsible for distribution and collecting the money.
 
Unfortunately, it's not that simple. Besides YouTube the distribution takes place on Amazon Music, Apple Music, Spotify, Deezer, Napster and many other platforms. And as the author the respective person of the released album claims to be the author. This person has transferred his not existing rights of use to SonoSuite, which is now responsible for distribution and collecting the money.
Ah, I see I hadn't read enough of the thread to be offering useful advice.

Am I correct in assuming that your SoundCloud tracks had no ISRCs?
 
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Am I correct in assuming that your SoundCloud tracks had no ISRCs?
Yes, that's correct. Since these tracks are a little bit older, I hadn't the time yet to register them with my PRO and publish them officially via distribution service.
 
Just in the interest of keeping this discussion grounded in reality, copyright infringement is not a crime in any English-speaking country, and I‘d be very surprised if it’s a crime anywhere in Europe.
I would be curious to know the source of that information.

If you take a look at the PRS (one of the UK PRO) in their guide to copyright, there is a section about copyright infrigement (and sections about economic rights and moral rights which only the copyright owner can exercise):

https://www.prsformusic.com/-/media/files/prs-for-music/membership/copyright_law_introduction-(1).pdf

"Infringement of Copyright If a person carries out one of the restricted acts without the authorisation of the copyright owner this constitutes copyright infringement. These acts are strict liability which means that it is not necessary for the copyright owner to demonstrate that the person conducting the acts knew that he was infringing copyright. Indeed it is possible to infringe copyright subconsciously. The copyright owner's rights are not limited by the amount of work used, thus if a 'substantial part' of the work is, for example, copied or broadcast this will still constitute an infringement of the work. A substantial part is assessed qualitatively and could be a very small part of the work if that part was distinctive and thus substantial. The copyright owner is also able to take action against persons who subsequently deal with an infringing copy or facilitated the infringement itself. These acts are known as acts of secondary liability. The copyright owner is able to take civil action for copyright infringement where a number of remedies are available (see below under ‘Remedies’). Some acts of copyright infringement also constitute a criminal offence and therefore criminal proceedings can be taken by the copyright owner, Trading Standards or other law enforcement agencies. "
 
Yes, that's correct. Since these tracks are a little bit older, I hadn't the time yet to register them with my PRO and publish them officially via distribution service.
I think a lot of people use SoundCloud to put up music that they aren't ready to formally release, or just want to put up casually for whatever reason. If I remember right, they used to market themselves as a platform specifically for that purpose. I guess that's not really safe.

It's good that you brought it to everyone's attention, but what a lame situation.
 
The acts which the article refers to are listed as thus:

"Economic Rights

The economic rights of a copyright owner are expressed in the Copyright Designs and Patents Act (CDPA) 1988 as a series of 'restricted acts' that only the copyright owner can do or authorise. These are:

• To copy a work
• To distribute copies of a work
• To rent or lend a work
• To perform, show or play a work in public
• To communicate a work to the public (which is any electronic transmission and includes broadcasting)
• To adapt a work (and all the other acts with that new work)

All these rights include the right to do any of these acts with a substantial part of the work; this is assessed qualitatively and therefore can be a very small part of a work if it is distinctive."

These are the copyright holder's rights, and don't necessitate the need to show any intent to infrige them. As to the practical cost and effort of enforcing it, that is a different issues, but the legal rights of the copyright holder's are clear.
 
Regarding Soundcloud: There is a very good thread started by @JohnG on this exact topic about 4 years ago:

 
I've had four tracks taken from my Soundcloud account and included in these albums.

I've reached out to Spotify who have already removed them/in the process of removing them.
YouTube are a little more tricky but in dialogue with them.

I have also reached out directly to the distributor La Cupula and have had a response from them to let me know they are "investigating" it. We'll wait and see.

This is shitty but they have stolen, but have stolen low quality demos at best from my account and not proper finished/mastered tracks.
 
Hello everyone! A short update: we have now found over 40 of such albums!

For everyone who is interested to see if he himself is affected, I post the current list here:

Album NameUploaderFraudlent Link
1Lonely FeetRuby Gaylord Teylo
2HomesickJennie Brown
3A Call HomeDee Bogisich
4HomesickMerlin Marquardt
5Lost FootsstepsGust Ondricka Olaf
6Do Not Love MeHector Larkin Osa
7Way of LifeMalvina Kuhlman Laohttps://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_nEQ83Vljx3yDQ5D9RZoNFHMhZImus0hcw
8Around My HeartErnest Starkhttps://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_ldkBvsdYWtkvUXKfM7SPtXYNGTGU3gRU8
9Dragon FlightEliane McClureNo playlist because uploaded under "Various Artists - Topic"
Example Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHHNUk0hqZ0
10Entry of the LoveCornelius Bernierhttps://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLB9wbLcLpBiElQO27joTReSsrFeyWDwTG
11Machine RoomMarquis Ziemehttps://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_kLd9lVaQ9DMQYvXYHImXWrBYZ4f0yl2CY
12EscapeErich Labadiehttps://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_nYjWhCsUBdOZdRW--Gg8-4AXIbgJXfieg
13Demo ReelLayne VonRuedenhttps://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_nwdhm4m3Jm2le0-ICRdsUonMJ260L2DRY
14A Cup of PeaceBritney Batzhttps://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_lopkemAf0Y-V_bemDQ7eYjHKYJmUH2oyM
15Heroes Take FlightAndres Carterhttps://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_ly3Lm7YTRQVh7HNnwDL33RhCXcum3lcxc
16Rock In The SunEmmet Veumhttps://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_mp-i_bq0hbLCmHyNAz0zS7cxGV4FSDrY8
17A Living WaterLeland Schoen Icehttps://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_nhs76zobgDFP1R40bRleh5WLhVw6Lt__Y
18Eye on the ClockAlden Watsicahttps://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_l5zE46gd2j6mm0jmIxKjkm-IfWhy1iR8U
19Happy LittleVito Steuber Alisehttps://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_mO-OO2zY5cavFsmMox6pESwHuCz_vY3a0
20Chronicles of LoveVirgine Willhttps://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_mjBb8uh6dTxcWjzKaji-BkAFaIvNLO7D4
21Fountain of YouthOwen Doyle Quatyhttps://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_kL2_E_yfbMCGKEHlNRCDjRCYpqCIJfBTo
22A Clean TownKelly Swifthttps://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_lA83Q-IN8doIArHHusgh4bCCUg8uBinRM
23Digital IntesnityVelda Hayes Jhonhttps://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_mU7iOFIrxiOMzfGCVQa3vs-Msr3mamdXw
24MemoryQuincy Corwinhttps://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_noClOX39Oc3B6HchJ7QdyPn6ocw-UMrrg
25Log HorizonJayling Walsh Nickhttps://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_lDV46NahY9a5VMvG3iQXOoOv13ETMr2_c
26Coppy EyeMarcella Herzoghttps://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_k_pW1pavKeLxgBktWj11TiHbozzpi7zT0
27ParanoiaOmari Kerluke Viushttps://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_kpW3sybUKp8ikTYe5pnZj46W68heWnFk4
28All or NothingBessie Hauckhttps://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_k-x_wU_U95r__PFcXXwDArcQNe20_pb8U
29Dawn In The FleshReginald Kris Luishttps://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_lvan97KPsppJSdOt8B8MYA375gGLwAz18
30Sad EyesTia Prohaska Kayhttps://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_lU0snZoSrjNmzeHeyExdlIQE7BYmeFo-8
31Horizon LineEric Corwinhttps://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_m2NP9tAT6dZxrDqm2K-Na79OjVqYCMSTs
32The Forgotten PastBrian Dibbert Elishttps://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_k1rvXPqHrAcC_j_hH8wBdTo8k3ZOEx6Bs
33End of TimeKiarra Carrollhttps://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_kemK1G-ShVZ0I_v5vaJ2gHJeaJ_JJG0Ls
34Last YearNikki Ward Zacodhttps://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_nqlgBtlEMq0UXXMSb3be--NbllWY8MLdM
35Signal flowGlenda Willhttps://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_k4Wvm1ds7FRTFctlEdvruNC0yleWCNt4s
36AmbushDelphine Parkerhttps://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_keT2VPF9nJElspYN6aznf5OwgxVbDaVAM
37True CommitmentDonal Nguyenhttps://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_mctiV7fY6KKo9-iBYv98sDk3l30fVYQKk
38A Broken HeartUlises Boylehttps://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_mFSpiS4y9VvcuMSupR0yCOSG_MVHsFZmQ
39Alone in SpaceAbraham Mohrhttps://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_lgtwviRPy7BX-Q6v8Cfmgrw3QB2olCexA
40Devil LaughLaverna Hellerhttps://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_k74PH4y52I6ri05lBD-Xux2DGhjUeRA2k
41Now ScoreJayne Wunschhttps://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_klhL_qu_ndoCNkzZQfcppt_WuAqpFYh_c
42Cheese StringsGay Vandervorthttps://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_lgarJKzyvl1IE3AQ7hkj5lxSq-KAn6zL8
 
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