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If you were forced to use vintage libraries...

Lee Blaske

Senior Member
I imagine most of us here keep buying libraries, hoping upon hope that fresh and new products will really make a difference. I know I do. And, there are certainly interesting things coming out.

But, imagine doing an exercise where you were doing an orchestral piece with samples (let's not even say "mock up," let's assume low budget, and we're going for a final), and you did two versions to the absolute highest quality you could do. Version one, using sample library products that came out 10+ years ago, and version two, using anything you wanted to use (including the very latest releases). If you used every shred of skill you have on both versions, do you thing the general public would immediately be able to identify the track with the older libraries?

I'm just thinking that we've had some pretty high-quality stuff available for quite a few years now. When it comes to end results, I'm wondering how much the rate of improvement is changing. Personally, I know I already had some great libraries 10+ years ago. The increased amount of computer power (and SSD speed) available today has had a big impact on what I can crank out.
 
That's a good question. Right off the bat I'm thinking the EW Hollywood Series and Symphonic Choirs Platinum. I don't think those would pale at all, though there have been some awe-inspiring libraries since.
 
Interesting q, I think "10+ years ago" versus, let's say, "5-6 years ago" is a big deal for this challenge.

10+ years ago there was VSL and EWQL Symphonic Orchestra. And not much else worth remarking on, unless I missed something.

Between 10 years ago and 6 years ago you have the EW Hollywood lineup, Spitfire BML, the first versions of the Cinesamples orchestral lineup - and probably a whole list of other great products I'm forgetting to mention.

I think if you had a mockup made with samples available in 2007, 2013, and 2018, the general audience might not feel too much difference between '13 and '18 but '07 would probably stick out. In addition, the '18 mockup might take a LITTLE less work to complete and polish, than the '13 mockup.

But the biggest factor of all: the '18 mockup could probably be done for half the price or less, starting from a blank slate, as the '13 mockup, and some ridiculous fraction of the '07 cost. It's hard to do an apples to apples comparison. But EWQLSO Gold - a single mic position - cost approximately $1,500 in 2018 dollars when it debuted in 2004. The platinum ediiton cost about $4,800 in 2018 dollars. You had to buy it on DVD, too - dozens of DVDs. And the cost of a computer to run a library weighing in at nearly 70 GB on disk was through the roof as well. The first terabyte hard drive didn't exist until 2007. And back then, the distinction between 32 bit and 64 bit systems was important too. As I understand it that's why everyone used to use Gigastudio? That's before my time... ;)
 
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Yes, it's about the workflow. Even if you still could create equally convincing music with older samples, why would you want to if a more modern library gets you there in a fraction of the time? Provided it nails the tone, that is.
 
I think Andy Blaney set the standard many moons ago with his Debussy demo. That was stitched together with VSL and bits and bobs from other libraries like Project SAM stuff as I recall.

Listening back to some other older demos like 'She was a fair lass' (typing that I've literally only just got that pun - bugger my marrows am I dumb) I don't think there's much if any difference in terms of quality of production at all.

Even some of the older pianos like Black Grand and Garritan's now discontinued Steinway can hold their own with today's offerings.

As kontakt and the VSL player developed, a fair few libraries have made things easier to do. Libraries like Adventure Strings and Caspian Brass might not best older libraries in terms of sound but they are more helpful for getting ideas down quickly in one musical take. That's the sort of advance that computing power and scripting has made available.

There are a lot of libraries that have helped people of all standards sound decent. The Symphobias, Albions and Arks - and libraries with pre-recorded runs, ostinatos and effects - one can put together a very impressive sounding track with not too much effort thanks to their incredible samples and programming. I think that's where the real advance has been. This has had a strange effect in so far as you can have some very banal music that sounds sonically magnificent while a beautifully written piece played dry by an ancient library like the Vitous orchestra could disappear unnoticed.

Random musings....
 
Listening back to some other older demos like 'She was a fair lass' (typing that I've literally only just got that pun - bugger my marrows am I dumb) I don't think there's much if any difference in terms of quality of production at all.

Yeah, I agree LASS was a breakthrough product, it really showed what was possible, especially with the ARC Engine, even if they had to work around Kontakt in a kludgy way to demonstrate it. That's another thing worth mentioning, that Kontakt scripting and Kontakt itself were not as fully developed so many years ago.
 
If you used every shred of skill you have on both versions, do you thing the general public would immediately be able to identify the track with the older libraries?

Most (there always are some exceptions) of the general public can't even tell the difference between the orchestra from the kontakt factory library and a real orchestral recording. Maybe in an A/B test they could, but they won't listen to a well made VI orchestral track and think that it might not be a real orchestra imho.


If you used every shred of skill you have on both versions

The skills that I'm lacking you can't buy in library form... knowing that helps me keep my VI spending somewhat in check.
 
My old sampler E-MU and library ! I still have the ESI 4000 + disks. I also used an AKAI CD3000 + many CD's. So, samples and yet samples which we were able to work with especially as one could easily modify the sounds, thanks to the numerous parameters.

Sometimes, when I'm hearing what I've recorded at that time, I have the feeling that the sounds and the dynamics were already excellent !

WP_20140214_035.jpg
 
I have heard some amazing compositions done with EWQLSO and VSL, so I think that the audience would not hear the difference. But it will take a lot more time than doing it with the modern libraries. I still use LASS in every composition I do, I haven't heard a library yet that would replace it from my template. Same thing with the VSL woodwinds. About 5 years LASS, VSL woodwinds and EWQLSO brass and percussion was everything I used.

-Hannes
 
the sonic implants library still sounds great, only thing missing is legato transitions and mic positions but how it is right off the bat, its very good sounding.
i didnt like LASS which was one of the 1st of the bunch of new breed of libraries that came out. paid a lot when it came out.
 
My old sampler E-MU and library ! I still have the ESI 4000 + disks. I also used an AKAI CD3000 + many CD's. So, samples and yet samples which we were able to work with especially as one could easily modify the sounds, thanks to the numerous parameters.

Sometimes, when I'm hearing what I've recorded at that time, I have the feeling that the sounds and the dynamics were already excellent !

WP_20140214_035.jpg

Talking about hardware samplers, I remember reading positive reviews about Rolands hardware samplers and their Sampling CDs. I think it was called the LCDP Series.
 
Talking about hardware samplers, I remember reading positive reviews about Rolands hardware samplers and their Sampling CDs. I think it was called the LCDP Series.

i used a Korg M3R and E-mu Proteus back in the day.

A Roland GR-700/808 was my main synth for a few years.
 
mirouslav vitous samples on a digidesign sample cell 2. I’ve never paid so much for memory again in my life ;) still — this setup changed everything for me. A string section in 32mb of RAM ...
 
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