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I am SO Disappointed !!!!!

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Fleer

Feeding the Trolls
Not so. His arguments are actually quite interesting. If we want to get out of this bloody mess, we can use all the help we can get. Only by looking at it from as many angles as possible will we have a chance. So I’m quite grateful for bill5’s reasoning.
 
The irony of this is copy protection exists because of piracy, not the other way around.
True of course.
Looking at the various sample and plugindevs there seem to be many possible reactions to piracy, with their own consequences for everyone involved, including legit customers being dragged into it.

One might direct their frustration at the people using software or samples without buying a license.
But then legit customers dont purchase from pirates.
And there seem to be ways of dealing with all this that dont punish customers.

So now there is another way from my perspective as a customer for devs to differentiate themselves from their competitors, though one which both sides would gladly do away with i think.
 
And, like your reply, all those arguments were just excuses and rationalizations. Here's an idea...

Rather than try to move the goalposts and argue that piracy is OK, how about you supporters just acknowledge that it's wrong, but you don't care and are going to do it anyway? It would take a bit more courage to say that, but it would take less energy than trying to gaslight the whole forum.

How about i say this hopefully clearly enough:
I think it is wrong to use any software, samples etc without a legit license, either purchased or given away by the dev / company in question.

If you really think my response to you was in favor of piracy (though i dont see why that would be) i kindly refer you to the sentence above and ask that you at least accept that i mean what i write.
 

marclawsonmusic

Senior Member
How about i say this hopefully clearly enough:
I think it is wrong to use any software, samples etc without a legit license, either purchased or given away by the dev / company in question.

If you really think my response to you was in favor of piracy (though i dont see why that would be) i kindly refer you to the sentence above and ask that you at least accept that i mean what i write.
Fair enough. Although copy protection is often used as a rationale for piracy (as it has been in this thread).
 

Pier

Senior Member
Yep. As long as you have a PayPal account, decent internet speeds, and the money, then the modern buying experience for software and sound libraries is so quick-n-easy-n-painless that piracy is waaayyy more hassle, and I'd bet that cracked software is a big vector for malware, miner-ware, etc.

Even though we don't have the equivalent of Steam for music software and sound libraries, it's still easy and fast to buy stuff legitimately.
It's definitely way easier than it used to be, but it would be great to have a single desktop app that would manage the downloads/updates/refunds/payment/demos.

I know it won't happen as big companies like NI, EastWest, etc, have invested a lot in their own solutions, but one can dream. :)
 

thesteelydane

Bunker Samples
It's definitely way easier than it used to be, but it would be great to have a single desktop app that would manage the downloads/updates/refunds/payment/demos.

I know it won't happen as big companies like NI, EastWest, etc, have invested a lot in their own solutions, but one can dream. :)
There’s a few sites that bring a lot of devs under one roof and give you loyalty points that you can spend. They are really bad for us small devs though as they all take a 40-50% commission. If you want to support small devs, always buy directly from them. It’s a few more mouse clicks yes, but costs you the same and it makes a HUGE difference to us.

But then again 50% of something is better than 100% of nothing and maybe those people would never have found my website anyway. Just saying, if you have a choice and want to support a small developer always buy direct from them.
 

Mistro

Member
I think once computers got in the hands of the general public in the late 90s, it created a massive access phenomena (anyone remember the AOL days lol). Human nature will always kick in. Just look at how people are behaving with smartphones and social media.

I remember way back when I wanted to get into 3D modeling when I was younger, 3DS Max was over $3000. No way I would afford that anytime soon. I didn't come from a financially well off situation. Then I saw 3DS Max at a computer show for $20. Not saying it was ok to do but I did buy a $20 copy (it stopped working after a while so that was $20 wasted). Did I feel entitled to have 3DS Max?....No. But it was accessible and I wasn't thinking about it in any ethical terms, just wanted to get my hands on something I could not afford at the time. I also saw Reason 2.5 for $20. That was my first commercial DAW I enjoyed better than Cakewalk but could never get any updated versions.

Those were the same days I just started driving and didn't appreciate the value of paying tickets on time. I was young and certain values did not kick in yet. This is why I'm not quick to judge anyone though I would not encourage such things today. What always bothered me was not being able to go to any official sites to get updates and being paranoid about if my software will continue to work after a while or looking at the people who sell cracked software like they was the "weed guy" hoping nothing happens to them so we can get the latest updates when the time came around. The guy who sold the cracked software got busted by the feds after a while so there goes that. I also had some situations where i was fighting ransomeware screens with my heart in my stomach looking on torrent sites. Not a cool experience pulling your PC out the socket in a panic lol.

It just feels good to have something you don't have to hide and know you are entitled to official updates and customer service. Having something to hide or worry about getting caught just increases stress on your mental health and a lack of confidence. So I learned to save up and budget for the things I want. It feels so much better.
 

Batwaffel

r/audioproductiondeals
Piracy is one of the main reasons I started my subreddit. The reality is that piracy has existed long before the internet and it will not stop any time soon. What we can collectively do though is to educate people on why it's a bad thing, how it really affects many companies and their families and make people realise that these companies are not massive mega-million dollar companies and that 95% of them are trying to pay their bills like everyone else and that making their products available for free actually does indeed hurt their bottom line.

One example I like to use of this is when Daniel James put out Chaos and how his sales were pretty much steady until the day it hit torrent sites and, in his words, his sales fell off a cliff at the same exact time.

My way of combating this while being able to help my developer friends was to provide people with a place they could find sales and find that it can indeed be more affordable than they think. Of course this won't work for everyone, especially people who are flat broke, but it's something and has had a great turnout the past going on 6 years.
 

thesteelydane

Bunker Samples
Piracy is one of the main reasons I started my subreddit. The reality is that piracy has existed long before the internet and it will not stop any time soon. What we can collectively do though is to educate people on why it's a bad thing, how it really affects many companies and their families and make people realise that these companies are not massive mega-million dollar companies and that 95% of them are trying to pay their bills like everyone else and that making their products available for free actually does indeed hurt their bottom line.

One example I like to use of this is when Daniel James put out Chaos and how his sales were pretty much steady until the day it hit torrent sites and, in his words, his sales fell off a cliff at the same exact time.

My way of combating this while being able to help my developer friends was to provide people with a place they could find sales and find that it can indeed be more affordable than they think. Of course this won't work for everyone, especially people who are flat broke, but it's something and has had a great turnout the past going on 6 years.
And we are all grateful to you for that subreddit!
 

Nico5

𝄞 ♪♪♪ 𝄀 ♭♩‿♩ 𝄐
I wonder how many people here use adblockers which are depriving publishers/content creators/authors etc of revenue. You are effectively taking something (the content) while circumventing the method of payment (the ads). Is this not theft also?
Ad blocking is also a more complex subject because too many discussions intermingle two very different things: Ad blocking and cross-site tracking.

If your ad depends on cross site tracking, then it will be eliminated by tools that prevent cross site tracking.

If your ad doesn't depend on cross site tracking, a pure anti-tracking tool will not prevent it from being shown.

The big problem is that most websites show ads that depend on cross-site tracking. So arguably they are the authors of their own misfortune.

Count me amongst individuals who is totally fine with seeing ads, but is disgusted by cross site tracking.


p.s. I realize, there are others who are against seeing ads independently of cross site tracking.

p.p.s. For news publications, the argument could be made that tracking even on the same site is potentially evil, since you can probably figure out a lot of private stuff about your tracked readers. From political views to health issues and more. With a paper based news publication that wasn't really possible. On the other hand, a library has long been able to track the lending patterns of their readers - at least theoretically.



Deep irony alert: Subscribing to an online news publication, with the desire to pay them for their efforts, simultaneously enables very precise tracking. So in some way, by trying to be a good customer, you're actually getting screwed over on privacy. -- And that brings us full circle to good paying customers ending up sometimes getting punished by (some of the more draconian) copy-protection schemes out there.
 
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bill5

Senior Member
And, like your reply, all those arguments were just excuses and rationalizations. Here's an idea...

Rather than try to move the goalposts and argue that piracy is OK, how about you supporters just acknowledge that it's wrong, but you don't care and are going to do it anyway?
Some don't consider it wrong, so there's nothing to acknowledge. I'm not saying that is or isn't a valid viewpoint, just an observation. Again there's this "my opinion and the wrong one" attitude.

He is great at counterattacking and debating others but I don't recall him offering his own argument. Some people just like to stir the pot.
And again. I'm not "counterattacking," just offering my points of view. I haven't attacked anyone...which frankly is more than you can say.

I have no idea what "offering my own argument" even means. If you mean a solution, I think companies are already on the right track with online registrations, watermarking software, etc etc.

Some people just like to stir the pot.
Speaking of pots, pot meet kettle. You're the one attacking people and making snarky remarks, not me.

And I wasn't aware simply stating one's opinion or daring to disagree with others was "stirring the pot."
 

marclawsonmusic

Senior Member
What's "wrong" or "right" is subjective.
I will never have common ground with someone who thinks like this. I think stealing software is 'wrong'. If that's 'my opinion and the wrong one', so be it.

And again. I'm not "counterattacking," just offering my points of view. I haven't attacked anyone...which frankly is more than you can say.
I have no idea what "offering my own argument" even means. If you mean a solution, I think companies are already on the right track with online registrations, watermarking software, etc etc.
And I wasn't aware simply stating one's opinion or daring to disagree with others was "stirring the pot."
You are effective at dismantling other people's arguments and pointing out their logical fallacies. You are also effective at offering 'what ifs'... without taking a concrete position of your own. That's what I meant by not offering an argument and 'stirring the pot'.

Look, I have nothing personal against you or even the poor guy I railed on for defending piracy earlier in the thread. I just don't like to see creative people get screwed over or robbed and that's what piracy does - to people on this forum. To people on this thread even.
 

bill5

Senior Member
I will never have common ground with someone who thinks like this. I think stealing software is 'wrong'. If that's 'my opinion and the wrong one', so be it.
Key words: "I think" and "opinion." How is that not subjective? I'm not saying your opinion is right OR wrong per se...and as others have pointed out, it's not so cut and dry. Moral issues rarely are...

You are effective at dismantling other people's arguments and pointing out their logical fallacies.
Thanks, I think. Whether or not they're fallacies depends on the specifics and again, subjective. God knows I don't have a lock on the truth.

You are also effective at offering 'what ifs'... without taking a concrete position of your own. That's what I meant by not offering an argument and 'stirring the pot'.
Not sure what kind of "what ifs" you're referring to, but regardless, allow me to clarify: I don't promote piracy or think it's "OK" but I also don't condemn such people as the work of Satan. And how bad such things are I think is also nuanced depending on the specifics.

Look, I have nothing personal against you or even the poor guy I railed on for defending piracy earlier in the thread. I just don't like to see creative people get screwed over or robbed and that's what piracy does - to people on this forum. To people on this thread even.
We agree there. I have nothing personal against me either. ;) No, I don't want to see anyone, creative or not, here or not, get screwed over or robbed.
 

Polkasound

Senior Member
But again, they or you or I have no right to apply our own personal interpretation of the EULA and do whatever WE consider to be "harmless." A pirate could say the same thing: I just made a copy I wouldn't have bought anyway, so it's harmless. If someone contacted the owner and got permission to do something, OK, but regardless, either one respects the EULA or not. Saying it's OK to blow it off one way but not another is applying a double standard.
I own a license for Cubase. I have it installed on two DAWs... one at home, and one at my studio which is 15 minutes away. I am the only person with access to the DAWs. I have one dongle for my license, and many times I forget to bring it with me. When I do that, I have to make a very unpleasant 30-minute round trip. I would gladly pay someone to clone my dongle. Yes, it would be a violation of the EULA, but my only reason for doing it would be to make using MY software license easier. I'm not engaged in unauthorized distribution. I just don't like having to make those round trips.

Someone with poor eyesight buys a legit copy of Kontakt, then cracks it to make the fonts larger. He is the only one who will use it. He's not going to distribute anything. He just wants to improve his version of Kontakt to make his life easier.

These are two examples of ways in which a broken EULA harms no one, but no developer is going to open a can of worms by writing a EULA that says, "If you want to do some reverse engineering of your legally-purchased, licensed copy of our software in the privacy of your own home to aid you in your legitimate use of the software, well, as long as you're not unlocking unpaid content, stealing our code, or distributing or sharing anything, and as long as you purchase any upgrades we release that contain any modifications you've made, and as long as you understand you wave your right to service and upgrades, we don't see any harm in it. But for everyone else, reverse engineering is strictly prohibited."

It's a hell of a lot easier to say, "YOU MAY NOT MODIFY OUR SOFTWARE". This blanket statement is not written to needlessly stifle how a legitimate owner uses his legitimate license in the privacy of his own home. It's written to aid in the prosecution of those who crack and distribute software.

Allowing an American flag to touch the floor is against the law. Let's say there's an old flag on the floor in the corner of your dusty attic, and no one but you knows its there. You're breaking the law, but what entity are you harming by doing so?

If you adhere to the letter of every EULA, that's great. I officially recommend everyone do that. There's no harm in driving exactly 55 MPH in a 55 MPH zone. But when you've been in the game for a long time, you come to understand that EULAs are written the way they are in order to deter widespread unauthorized distribution/piracy, just like speed limits are posted to deter only the fastest speeders.

A pirate could say the same thing: I just made a copy I wouldn't have bought anyway, so it's harmless.
The reason pirates use that excuse is because they're idiots. Seriously. It doesn't matter if they say they never would have paid for the software. If they chose to install and use the software without paying for it, then they have willingly engaged in unauthorized distribution. They have acquired the intellectual property of the developer without paying the developer for the permission to use it. This is the main thing EULAs aim to deter.
 

easyrider

Embracing the Absurd
I own a license for Cubase. I have it installed on two DAWs... one at home, and one at my studio which is 15 minutes away. I am the only person with access to the DAWs. I have one dongle for my license, and many times I forget to bring it with me. When I do that, I have to make a very unpleasant 30-minute round trip. I would gladly pay someone to clone my dongle. Yes, it would be a violation of the EULA, but my only reason for doing it would be to make using MY software license easier. I'm not engaged in unauthorized distribution. I just don't like having to make those round trips.

Someone with poor eyesight buys a legit copy of Kontakt, then cracks it to make the fonts larger. He is the only one who will use it. He's not going to distribute anything. He just wants to improve his version of Kontakt to make his life easier.

These are two examples of ways in which a broken EULA harms no one, but no developer is going to open a can of worms by writing a EULA that says, "If you want to do some reverse engineering of your legally-purchased, licensed copy of our software in the privacy of your own home to aid you in your legitimate use of the software, well, as long as you're not unlocking unpaid content, stealing our code, or distributing or sharing anything, and as long as you purchase any upgrades we release that contain any modifications you've made, and as long as you understand you wave your right to service and upgrades, we don't see any harm in it. But for everyone else, reverse engineering is strictly prohibited."

It's a hell of a lot easier to say, "YOU MAY NOT MODIFY OUR SOFTWARE". This blanket statement is not written to needlessly stifle how a legitimate owner uses his legitimate license in the privacy of his own home. It's written to aid in the prosecution of those who crack and distribute software.

Allowing an American flag to touch the floor is against the law. Let's say there's an old flag on the floor in the corner of your dusty attic, and no one but you knows its there. You're breaking the law, but what entity are you harming by doing so?

If you adhere to the letter of every EULA, that's great. I officially recommend everyone do that. There's no harm in driving exactly 55 MPH in a 55 MPH zone. But when you've been in the game for a long time, you come to understand that EULAs are written the way they are in order to deter widespread unauthorized distribution/piracy, just like speed limits are posted to deter only the fastest speeders.


The reason pirates use that excuse is because they're idiots. Seriously. It doesn't matter if they say they never would have paid for the software. If they chose to install and use the software without paying for it, then they have willingly engaged in unauthorized distribution. They have acquired the intellectual property of the developer without paying the developer for the permission to use it. This is the main thing EULAs aim to deter.
Dude share your dongle over the internet.
 

Nico5

𝄞 ♪♪♪ 𝄀 ♭♩‿♩ 𝄐
This thread could serve as a case study in observing our varying different personality types.

Those familiar with the Myers-Briggs way of looking at personality types will notice that some contributors to this thread seem to have a much stronger J type personality and others a much stronger P type personality.
When that happens, it's not surprising that arguments can get a bit heated. :emoji_stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

The following is a short excerpt from this page (I'm claiming "fair use" for educational purposes ;) )

Judging and Perceiving​

Judging and Perceiving preferences, within the context of personality types, refers to our attitude towards the external world, and how we live our lives on a day-to-day basis. People with the Judging preference want things to be neat, orderly and established. The Perceiving preference wants things to be flexible and spontaneous. Judgers want things settled, Perceivers want thing open-ended.

We are using Judging when we:

  • Make a list of things to do
  • Schedule things in advance
  • Form and express judgments
  • Bring closure to an issue so that we can move on
We are using Perceiving when we:

  • Postpone decisions to see what other options are available
  • Act spontaneously
  • Decide what to do as we do it, rather than forming a plan ahead of time
  • Do things at the last minute
We all use both Judging and Perceiving as we live our day-to-day life. Within the context of personality type, the important distinction is which way of life do we lean towards, and are more comfortable with.

The differences between Judging and Perceiving are probably the most marked differences of all the four preferences. People with strong Judging preferences might have a hard time accepting people with strong Perceiving preferences, and vice-versa. On the other hand, a "mixed" couple (one Perceiving and one Judging) can complement each other very well, if they have developed themselves enough to be able to accept each other's differences.
 

Pier

Senior Member
I wonder how many people here use adblockers which are depriving publishers/content creators/authors etc of revenue. You are effectively taking something (the content) while circumventing the method of payment (the ads). Is this not theft also?
I agree, which is why I disable my ad blocker on sites I use frequently such VIC, Reddit, etc.

For Youtube I pay a subscription that remove ads and also gives money to creators.

There is this project called Coil that automatically gives micropayments to sites you visit. I paid the subscription for a while but so few sites have implemented the micropayments API that it was useless.

In general I do keep my ad blocker on because there's too much abuse from ad networks, behavior tracking, privacy, etc.
 
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