How would you pan piano on your mix (not classical).

[Goldblattxo]

I'm working on a short musical piece. 30 seconds. Piano, few string instruments. One synth pad. Not classical. Maybe a mix between Pop and cinematic.

So I'm using jazz chords for piano. How do I pan them? Stereo pan or balance pan? Left hand, right hand, when I pan what number should I aim for or what is typically aimed for (-7 left +7 right)? What would you do?

Please be specific as I'm a beginner when it comes to mixing, mastering.

I'm using Logic Pro.

I appreciate your help and thank you for your time.

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[CGR]

There are so many variables when considering an answer to this question.

• Real or sampled piano?
• How was it mic'd (mono/stereo – close/mid/room mics?)
• How does the piano's tone (dark, mid-range-y, bright) sit with the other instruments?

 

[Goldblattxo]

Sorry, I forgot to include that. I'm using virtual instruments. Spitfire Audio Chamber Strings and Albion Solstice for synth pad. Piano I'm using Hammersmith Pro from Soniccouture. That's all I'm using on this piece. Piano tone sits around midrange

Just give me a few examples on numbers when panning. Stereo pan? Balance pan?

Thx

 

[CGR]

The Hammersmith Pro has numerous mic sets. I’d start with the side position mics, and stereo pan it around -/+ 12-20

I can highly recommend this panning/depth positioning/reverb plugin. Very natural results can be achieved with it.

ARVerb Room reverb plugin

Lightweight algorithmic reverb using physics-based modeling

arverb.com

 

[Goldblattxo]

The Hammersmith Pro has numerous mic sets. I’d start with the side position mics, and stereo pan it around -/+ 12-20

I can highly recommend this panning/depth positioning/reverb plugin. Very natural results can be achieved with it.

ARVerb Room reverb plugin

Lightweight algorithmic reverb using physics-based modeling

arverb.com

Sweet! I'll be sure to use my ears but when panning left hand right hand are the numbers typically the same -- for example L pan minus 15 -- right pan plus 15 -- or the panning different. I know you can't give me an exact number but when you pan are your numbers usually the same for left and right pan or do they go different?

And I'll check out that plugin.

 

[yydr_cc]

I'd just keep it moderately narrow for the dry signal. From there it would depend on what room I am imagining it in and where the audience is sitting. With your description I might think of a small club, not much of a stage, piano to the mid-side. If the piano is the chief instrument carrying the moment then put it forward a bit.
The reverb is what will give the whole thing space and you can use early reflections and predelay to push whatever you want forward and across the stage as you imagine it. Roll off the highs from the reverb and use a small club/room preset
I remember looking at that ARverb when it came out but did not buy for probably fiscally prudent reasons - it was impressive tho

 

[CGR]

I'd just keep it moderately narrow for the dry signal. From there it would depend on what room I am imagining it in and where the audience is sitting. With your description I might think of a small club, not much of a stage, piano to the mid-side. If the piano is the chief instrument carrying the moment then put it forward a bit.
The reverb is what will give the whole thing space and you can use early reflections and predelay to push whatever you want forward and across the stage as you imagine it. Roll off the highs from the reverb and use a small club/room preset
I remember looking at that ARverb when it came out but did not buy for probably fiscally prudent reasons - it was impressive tho

. . . +1

 

[creativeforge]

The Hammersmith Pro has numerous mic sets. I’d start with the side position mics, and stereo pan it around -/+ 12-20

I can highly recommend this panning/depth positioning/reverb plugin. Very natural results can be achieved with it.

ARVerb Room reverb plugin

Lightweight algorithmic reverb using physics-based modeling

arverb.com

Could I ask you a question? I'm surprised a Steinway sounds so bright, like a Yamaha or Kawai even.

Does it have presets to make it softer/darker? And how about string resonance? Without reverbs, only the sustain pedal, does it sound rich?

UPDATE: I just saw on their site "True Sustain Sampling" mentioned and it answers my question.

Stuck undecided between this and the El Campanil. I like softer/darker pianos, rather than the bright sounding ones.

 

[CGR]

Could I ask you a question? I'm surprised a Steinway sounds so bright, like a Yamaha or Kawai even.

Does it have presets to make it softer/darker? And how about string resonance? Without reverbs, only the sustain pedal, does it sound rich?

UPDATE: I just saw on their site "True Sustain Sampling" mentioned and it answers my question.

Yes, this is quite a “wiry” sounding New York Steinway, and being sampled sustain pedal up & down in a large high ceiling studio (owned by Mark Knopfler from ‘Dire Straits’) it has a lovely 3 dimensional soundstage. Great playability too given it was sampled using the piano’s built-in MIDI player system.

 

[Beat Kaufmann]

It's best to search the internet (YouTube) to find out how others have solved the problem and choose what you like best.

The mix sounds most natural,
a) if the strings sound wide in the stereo field, the piano rather in the middle (stereo widener to mono - tool) but still in stereo
b) if both “instruments” are about the same distance (acustically)
c) or if b) is not possible... when the piano is closer to the listener.
d) Ideally, you should only use a reverb for both in the sum of the mix, then both sound in the same room, which further increases the naturalness of the mix.

If possible Listen and decide the stereo-matters via loudspeakers... compare your mix with the reference you've found before...

Beat

 

[civilizashum]

I would never artificially make a grand piano mono. I would in nearly every case (toms, snare, kick and prob. hat in a kit the exception(s), they come out the vi as mono but go in VE Pro, so) make a more narrow stereo field if something is interfering in the mix. The initial post specifically said "not classical" so to me the bet 'most natural' is maybe not so good for the stated use. I will say I am not going for 'unnatural' but 'classical' aesthetic is not it, I'm not writing piano concerti (which does not appear to relate to the OP's goal particularly anyway).

What I use is stereo and works best using the room whether in the original Synchron Pianos or in MIR Pro. I don't pan it, leave it be so it is de facto centered, but the image is very stereo and very effective where I've used it. This does not mean 'wet'. If I'm arsing with piano it's going to be a chief feature meant to sound prominently. If I'm using anything orchestral they're all going to be well out of the way (in back of the piano) so here there is no call at all for an extraordinary move like monoizing. I like piano with a drum kit, they're a very close couple, but the drums are slightly in back of. I like if the piano seems to make the snares or cymbals vibrate (it's doable).

 

[Beat Kaufmann]

I would never artificially make a grand piano mono....

Additional information to my post above:
It actually shows once again how pointless mixing tips are if you don't know the source material. A sampled piano can
a) either sound completely “dry” and have the lowest notes on the far left of the stereo field and the high notes on the right.
b) It can be recorded sideways, with some space
c) It can be recorded with room microphones
d)
e) you can perhaps create a combination of all microphones...
Of course, you can only give tips once you know the original sound.


When civilizashum says he would never make a piano mono, I didn't say that...
I assumed a dry piano sound (example dry)
If you add reverb to this and push the piano down a little, the low notes will still sound on the left and the high notes on the right. This causes irritation for the brain because it has never heard anything like it in real life (this cannot be true). Now comes my suggestion to reduce the stereo width a little (not mono!).
Listen to all the examples - also together with strings and preferably in headphones. A 100% wide piano may sound great, but natural is different.

Even civilizashum reduces the stereo width when using MIR. I don't think he's pulling up the piano on his virtual stage from the far left to the far right.

---------------
So listen to Piano-Mix_pur_wet how far the low notes will still sound on the left and the high notes on the right. The Piano_Mix_wet_50%stereo fits much mor better to the acoustical distance.
Same with additional strings...

That's about the point narrowing the stereo-width (not to mono). But once more: it depends on the source material...
---------------

Goldblattxo, you see, if you want us to help you, a short example of the strings and of course your piano would be very useful. Otherwise, advice can even be counterproductive.

Beat

 

[SupremeFist]

If you're not going for a "classical" sound, by which I assume is meant "the sound of a piano in a room as heard by an audience at a piano recital", then literally anything goes. But I agree with Beat that if the piano is to share space with orchestra/synth etc then I would not use a fully wide "player" microphone perspective unless it really is first and foremost a piano piece with some decoration in the background. But there are no rules, still less specific pan numbers! As Beat also says, it's a matter of taste.

 

[PeterN]

I'm working on a short musical piece. 30 seconds. Piano, few string instruments. One synth pad. Not classical. Maybe a mix between Pop and cinematic.

So I'm using jazz chords for piano. How do I pan them? Stereo pan or balance pan? Left hand, right hand, when I pan what number should I aim for or what is typically aimed for (-7 left +7 right)? What would you do?

Please be specific as I'm a beginner when it comes to mixing, mastering.

I'm using Logic Pro.

I appreciate your help and thank you for your time.

check Lennons imagine. it starts with piano in centre but when voice comes in, it goes on sides. and stays there. basically the piano is in different stereo field on sides, and rest in mids. I never heard that before, until I started mixing my own stuff. 'hey, they moved the piano sound' (just like bowies space oddity is a complete mess in panning, didnt hear that before either).