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Hollywood orchestra opus edition and hollywood orchestrator

ehhm ... honestly, the anger against EW here goes a bit too far for my liking. I'm a bit surprised. I can understand disappointment when the library is not ready - people need new libraries. But to call it "being robbed" because one signed up for CC sounds pretty weird. What EW does is modern advertising, not more, not less. Legit. I dont have to like that, I dont have to care. I'm only interested in their products. Its business. People these days fall too easily for rumors, hyped trends and recommendations etc. .. I'm interested in Opus, I have HWS Diamond and HWB Diamond but not the whole HOD .. do I upgrade now? F-word no. I wait and see how it sounds - I'm sure there will be a way to upgrade at a reasonable price, if not then so be it. We have enough options..
Getting advertisment and recommendations all the time. iOS upgrade here, Skype there (every 2 weeks), 8dio and Spitfire emails 3 times a week. So? I dont care - usually I say no to skype upgrade, delete the iOS upgrade and wait for the next in 2 months etc.. When I need something THEN I start looking. Same with Opus, same with CSW, same with BSS etc. etc. .. dont need it urgently. Happy to wait and see. We have so many options.

So if you signed up for CC or bought HOD .. awesome. Write something with it :P
 
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I absolutely agree 150% that as soon as 21st January arrived EW should have sent out an email explaining the delay. Like you say, a lot of people are planning their budget around it. They should know they have a responsibility to do that - even just out of politeness, if nothing else.

It's the rudeness and sarcasm that bother me. It lowers the level of debate, achieves nothing, and just gives the forum a reputation as being full of dicks.
Ah, I see what you mean. I do agree with that! We should address people politely, for sure!! I try my best to express myself without being rude to strangers online, even if we disagree. Being a dick doesn’t accomplish anything anyway. My bad for the misunderstanding ^_^.
 
I understand Nick's point of view, but also that of potential customers.
The delays themselves are not the main point of criticism, but the communication. I would wish that there is at least a timely info that it, for whatever reason, can not yet be released.

I don't expect this information in forums, even if that's nice, but on the homepage.
However, I can live with the delay and if the product is better, more stable, then I prefer that than an unstable product that causes even more frustration.

I find it important that the tone remains appropriate. We are, after all, halfway grown-up people.
 
I absolutely agree 150% that as soon as 21st January arrived EW should have sent out an email explaining the delay. Like you say, a lot of people are planning their budget around it. They should know they have a responsibility to do that - even just out of politeness, if nothing else.

It's the rudeness and sarcasm that bother me. It lowers the level of debate, achieves nothing, and just gives the forum a reputation as being full of dicks.
I disagree, sorry. Obviously being rude is never a good option for communicating, but that's individual.
I read sarcastic and disappointed comments more than "rude" comments here.

In general forum is to express opinions and reactions:
- people gets excited by the hype and express emotional excitement and appreciation, and you are happy.

- so let's them express equally sarcastic and emotional reactions when they are disappointed and it hurts.

That's not being "dicks" it's being humans, and being honest, and being citizens of the global virtual village the marketers have created with THEIR decisions and communication style.

If they were honest, moderate and polite with customers, then sarcasm and emotional reactions would be off and inappropriate. But they played the game, now you can't complain about the result.
 
Apologies. It’s not arrogance. Doug has a lot of stuff going on besides EW. Same here. We are different than other developers, for better or worse. But Doug did hire a crack software team for the PLAY replacement. I mean the best there is. One thing I can say on our behalf is that we are pioneers and we never develop products for business reasons alone. We only make stuff that we would like to use or is missing from the marketplace completely. If you look closely at our history, you will see that’s true. We were the first to do a full orchestra with a big epic hall sound (EWQLSO). We were the first to do epic choirs and the first to do word building choirs. We were the first to do epic drums. At the time it came out, EWQL pianos was the best sounding multiple piano collection. We were the first to do detailed mutisampled ethnic collections. We developed the best sounding orchestral/film convolution reverb there is. Hollywood Orchestra would have taken over more if it weren’t for the fact that PLAY could not keep up when it first came out and a few other small mistakes we made. We did everything we could to make that the best orchestra library out there. The room actually is great. We had Sean Murphy and Thomas Bergersen involved. Top players, gear Etc.. That stuff matters. It’s not hype. Anyway, I think you will be very pleased with the new orchestra when it’s done. And that’s not that we don’t recognize that there are lots of great orchestral sounds out there these days. But it’s about different flavors, attitudes, sound spaces and playability.
Nick, I know you are coming from a good place and I'm sure the product, when it's out, is going to be really good. But this is exactly the kind of thing I was talking about. Instead of communicating, this comes across as ''hey but did you know we did all this other stuff before...''

It comes across as marketing speak, but kinda dishonest marketing speak here. Like, instead of writing what you honestly want to say, you're reading the standard marketing blurb. I'm not saying that's your intention, but this is exactly the sort of disconnect from reality that I was talking about. I think it would be a very wise thing to rethink this kind of communication. Product development as a whole is more involved these days than it used to be, and competition is fierce. The way you approach people can really make a huge difference, not just for this product, but for the believability of EW as a whole. Although I of course do not know your reach of involvement with EW as a whole.

I truly believe you are a genuinely nice guy and have great passion for what you do, and that you want to create a truly great product. And, making great products is hard, especially right now. So why not just... embrace that persona? It would really make people feel like they're being taken a little bit more serious. Your reaction, and I truly do not mean to offend, reads like a marketing-caricature. Almost parodying marketing stereotypes.

I say this because the Hollywood Orchestra is my favorite orchestra in all of sampling, and I truly want HOOPUS to be fantastic. I'm afraid though that the details surrounding it, especially the marketing and the communication, will hurt the product itself, or at least the way people view it. The heat of the debate here, whilst sometimes a little too heated, shows that people really do care. Communication is so important these days.

That said, keep it nice and civil people. No need for swearing, or name-calling. Talk to people like you would in real life. It's all too easy to lose a touch of compassion behind a virtual wall. Everyone on these forums is a person in real life.
 
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I think the main issues discussed here are not of Nick's doing (if I read Nick's comments correctly about not being involved in Comms and pricing), the quality of the work is often excellent.

The delay is not really the issue for me, these things happen, that is life especially during a pandemic. The primary issue is communication, or lack of it. No communication about the delay or how long it will be and no communication about pricing.

Most companies will give revised release dates after a delay. This is a reasonable thing to do. If the date is not yet quantifiable then this too should be communicated. Talking to customers is incredibly important to most businesses, as in installs trust and brand loyalty.

Not everyone gives you the pricing before release, but they often give you an indication of upgrade price or grace period when the product is an upgrade and this avoids buying something now and then pay for an upgrade, versus just paying for the full upgrade library.

I think the upgrade price strategy is a major issue separate to Opus (though obvious very relevant) that needs to be sorted. Upgrade should discount when the libraries are discounted. This is the way most companies work, rather than the upgrades being more expensive than new.
 
I'm not kidding when I said they're always way past deadline. They have a history of consistently bieng behind their own release schedule, more often than not by months at a time... Not to mention a history of promising something that never manifested, Play Pro.

Check the article from 2009, it's 2021 and Play Pro never came to market... There's no edibility, no scripting, Play's still just a sample player. This was all notoriously polarizing on their own forum, they started censoring user comments asking or critiquing the failure to deliver Play Pro. It's all a bit weird frankly.

While EW does make great sounding instruments, any company that promises a product they never deliver just strikes me as a company I don't want to hitch my cart to...


Well they did release this:


Because that was where my journey wth them began :D
 
People get so angry. The truth is I would rather do other stuff than make videos. I’m not really very good at it.

BTW, Nick, if you don’t have time to make videos you could always contact someone like Daniel James or Alex Pfeffer who already have a good following of composers on Twitch and YouTube. Lots of companies send them products for review. What better test of how easy OPUS is to use than that?
 
EW is a huge company and their egos are heavy ones, but simple...
"Hey guys, we are sorry for the delay, we fu*ked up and we must delay the product. The probable release date will be then and then, and these are the prices, so you can plan your investments".

But no, they are pulling marketing tricks on us, like they are selling detergents. Unfortunately for them, nowadays that does not work in the sample library world as competition is huge, and people are fed up with lies and treachery.

Well, do you many company (still existing) that give you full visibility on their internal development process ? I mean, that would be nice, but very dangerous in a competitive market; can't you imagine how the others player in the market could use this kind of information ?

I agree that it would be nice to have full visibility on what is going on inside a company, but it is not how things work, usually.

Software development is hard, and products are always late; check out Hofstader's law; do not trust, ever, a release date announced for a software product; that the only and one rule.

Maurizio

 
Apologies. It’s not arrogance. Doug has a lot of stuff going on besides EW. Same here. We are different than other developers, for better or worse. But Doug did hire a crack software team for the PLAY replacement. I mean the best there is. One thing I can say on our behalf is that we are pioneers and we never develop products for business reasons alone. We only make stuff that we would like to use or is missing from the marketplace completely. If you look closely at our history, you will see that’s true. We were the first to do a full orchestra with a big epic hall sound (EWQLSO). We were the first to do epic choirs and the first to do word building choirs. We were the first to do epic drums. At the time it came out, EWQL pianos was the best sounding multiple piano collection. We were the first to do detailed mutisampled ethnic collections. We developed the best sounding orchestral/film convolution reverb there is. Hollywood Orchestra would have taken over more if it weren’t for the fact that PLAY could not keep up when it first came out and a few other small mistakes we made. We did everything we could to make that the best orchestra library out there. The room actually is great. We had Sean Murphy and Thomas Bergersen involved. Top players, gear Etc.. That stuff matters. It’s not hype. Anyway, I think you will be very pleased with the new orchestra when it’s done. And that’s not that we don’t recognize that there are lots of great orchestral sounds out there these days. But it’s about different flavors, attitudes, sound spaces and playability.
Really appreciated, and fair comments. I understand and agree with everything you say about the legacy of QL EW and that's the reason why your hard work should deserve a better support from commercial/marketing/communication point of view.

It's very hard to consider fair what's going on with announcement and sales, totally disregarding the quality of the product and the requested time for a proper development, that we know it's not trivial and predictable at all.
 
I don’t think anyone is necessarily complaining about the fact that OPUS got delayed. On the contrary, everyone would gladly wait for a more polished product. Of course things happen. We all understand that.
Let's be fair to Nick: some people are being mean about the delay in and of itself.

I agree about the grossness on the Cloud sub push combined with the subsequent no-communication delay, and people have the right to be angry about that. I'm a BIG fan of EWHO, but it's a sour move and a risk (on both the company and user side) inherent in subscription offers.

Imagine if Netflix unexpectedly added no new content in February, after previously saying they'd bring 100 new 8k resolution shows and movies starting the first of February. And had been making a push for people to subscribe to their 8k subscription service? And then never said anything about it after they didn't add anything? Half the Internet would be in an uproar.

Now, put that in a space like we have here, in which it potentially impacts people's jobs. You (the universal "you," not you, Jose!) can argue all you want that people should purchase based on what exists today, but that simply doesn't happen in the real world. EastWest was quite specifically urging signups because HOOPUS was on its way. It was literally their strategy.

But, yeah, some people are just fussing about the delay itself, not how the delay is being managed.

Whether the reactions by users are "right" or "professional" or not, companies should expect this behavior. Marketing (or otherwise faces of the company) rile people up and get them in a positive, energetic fervor about their products, and should not be surprised when the pendulum swings the other way.

I'm checking out of this thread until we get more videos or audio demos.
 
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Let's be fair to Nick: some people are being mean about the delay in and of itself. I completely agree about the grossness on the Cloud sub push and a subsequent no-communication delay, and people have the right to be angry about that. But some people are just fussing about the delay itself.

With that said, companies should expect this behavior. Marketing (or otherwise faces of the company) rile people up and get them in a positive, energetic fervor about their products, and should not be surprised when the pendulum swings the other way.

EW, an others, could easily mitigate this issue (of product release delays) by simply announcing it when it’s ready. I mean, what a concept! Heavyocity is a GREAT example of that. You only hear from them when they actually have something ready. Customers are happy because they get the product almost immediately, and Heavyocity looks good because there are no delays. Win, win!

Nobody had any idea that EW was working on OPUS, so why even mention it if it’s not even a finished product? You see, this is where the frustration comes. Because they keep doing this and underestimating how long it takes them to actually finish it. So, of course, people will get mad. It’s completely rational. That said, I still believe that if you level with your customers that they’ll most likely understand and are more willing to let things fly. These days, with all the technologies currently in place, there really are no excuses no to do so. Zero excuses!
 
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ehhm ... honestly, the anger against EW here goes a bit too far for my liking. I'm a bit surprised. I can understand disappointment when the library is not ready - people need new libraries. But to call it "being robbed" because one signed up for CC sounds pretty weird. What EW does is modern advertising, not more, not less. Legit. I dont have to like that, I dont have to care. I'm only interested in their products. Its business. People these days fall too easily for rumors, hyped trends and recommendations etc. .. I'm interested in Opus, I have HWS Diamond and HWB Diamond but not the whole HOD .. do I upgrade now? F-word no. I wait and see how it sounds - I'm sure there will be a way to upgrade at a reasonable price, if not then so be it. We have enough options..
Getting advertisment and recommendations all the time. iOS upgrade here, Skype there (every 2 weeks), 8dio and Spitfire emails 3 times a week. So? I dont care - usually I say no to skype upgrade, delete the iOS upgrade and wait for the next in 2 months etc.. When I need something THEN I start looking. Same with Opus, same with CSW, same with BSS etc. etc. .. dont need it urgently. Happy to wait and see. We have so many options.

So if you signed up for CC or bought HOD .. awesome. Write something with it :P
1000% agree
 
ehhm ... honestly, the anger against EW here goes a bit too far for my liking. I'm a bit surprised. I can understand disappointment when the library is not ready - people need new libraries. But to call it "being robbed" because one signed up for CC sounds pretty weird. What EW does is modern advertising, not more, not less. Legit. I dont have to like that, I dont have to care. I'm only interested in their products. Its business. People these days fall too easily for rumors, hyped trends and recommendations etc. .. I'm interested in Opus, I have HWS Diamond and HWB Diamond but not the whole HOD .. do I upgrade now? F-word no. I wait and see how it sounds - I'm sure there will be a way to upgrade at a reasonable price, if not then so be it. We have enough options..
Getting advertisment and recommendations all the time. iOS upgrade here, Skype there (every 2 weeks), 8dio and Spitfire emails 3 times a week. So? I dont care - usually I say no to skype upgrade, delete the iOS upgrade and wait for the next in 2 months etc.. When I need something THEN I start looking. Same with Opus, same with CSW, same with BSS etc. etc. .. dont need it urgently. Happy to wait and see. We have so many options.

So if you signed up for CC or bought HOD .. awesome. Write something with it :P
It is interesting ... this is a "tough" forum, especially for vendors.

If you took out Opus and EastWest, and inserted Spitfire, you would think this is just another Spitfire thread with people bashing them. :D

Over on the MSS thread, there is some general uneasy feelings about delays ... not as strong as here.

Maybe CSW did the right approach ... quit discussing it SO much that people wonder if it will ever happen ... then BAM. MSS is close to that, but they probably could have delayed any talk on it for 2 months.

I think with this crowd, it is best to wait until actual launch to release info. Or maybe just don't mention release dates. :D.
 
It is interesting ... this is a "tough" forum, especially for vendors.

If you took out Opus and EastWest, and inserted Spitfire, you would think this is just another Spitfire thread with people bashing them. :D

Over on the MSS thread, there is some general uneasy feelings about delays ... not as strong as here.

Maybe CSW did the right approach ... quit discussing it SO much that people wonder if it will ever happen ... then BAM. MSS is close to that, but they probably could have delayed any talk on it for 2 months.

I think with this crowd, it is best to wait until actual launch to release info. Or maybe just don't mention release dates. :D.

Cinematic Studio is a bit of a shining light in the sample world in my opinion.

No excessive advertising/promotions/hype.
No releasing a new product every 5 minutes.
Consistent and reasonable pricing ($399 a section, or $279 if you are already a customer or if you are buying on black Friday week. That's it). No sales every 2 minutes. No constantly devaluing products or making you wish you waited another month. Just a reasonable price from the start and a sales structure that rewards loyalty, is predictable and not too extreme.
Very well done products, delivering high quality, expressive and easy to use instruments.
Very polite and quick to respond customer support.

Whilst, obviously all these companies are money making endevours, Cinematic Studio seems to go about it in one of the most honest and customer/consumer friendly way. There just doesnt seem to be any obvious bulll***/obvious money grabbing antics with them unlike that which you get with some other developers.
 
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I do not feel EW is being dishonest or intentionally misleading, I'm sure they're doing their best. I just feel communication could be better.

If Jan 21 was the big day and there was some delay or something unexpected happened, surely a walkthrough posted on YT or something of that nature is at least possible while they iron out the last few kinks, right? I mean, if that's not the case and it's not functional up to the point of allowing for a pre-recorded overview then this is probably not releasing anytime soon.
 
BTW, Nick, if you don’t have time to make videos you could always contact someone like Daniel James or Alex Pfeffer who already have a good following of composers on Twitch and YouTube. Lots of companies send them products for review. What better test of how easy OPUS is to use than that?
Absolutely or Guy Michelmore who has already done a video and free course on composer cloud so would be ideal to do a video demo of it.
 
EW, an others, could easily mitigate this issue (of product release delays) by simply announcing it when it’s ready. I mean, what a concept! Heavyocity is a GREAT example of that. You only hear from them when they actually have something ready. Customers are happy because they get the product almost immediately, and Heavyocity looks good because there are no delays. Win, win!
And this. Exactly.
 
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