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Give Spitfire a chance? Or not?... Samplecast review now LIVE

Johann F.

Member
To quote from a nice article: http://bokardo.com/principles-of-user-interface-design/

"Clarity is job #1
Clarity is the first and most important job of any interface. To be effective using an interface you've designed, people must be able to recognize what it is, care about why they would use it, understand what the interface is helping them interact with, predict what will happen when they use it, and then successfully interact with it. While there is room for mystery and delayed gratification in interfaces, there is no room for confusion. Clarity inspires confidence and leads to further use. One hundred clear screens is preferable to a single cluttered one."

Also I think you misunderstand what an echo chamber is. Thats when lots of people who all have the same opinion talk about that subject then just agree with each other without a dissenting voice. What you are referencing is my tenacity to make sure what I am saying is not being misrepresented by responding to any post or comment that didn't get what I was saying or implying I said something other than I did. I am just debating the point, I have conseeded on some things (if you care to read) and am trying to find middle ground with everyone involved.

And to your other point no I am not spiteful towards companies that don't send me NFR's, there are many companies who don't want to deal with my honesty but I still talk about their libraries and we have good honest discourse. Something I am all for!

If you really want to have the conversation about brands again send me a PM or go read the pages where I explain all about brands, public perception of them and how they can be interpreted. For example because it was called Hans Zimmer Strings I thought that was going to somehow sound like Hans Zimmer...or at least the Hans Zimmer I know. But I admitted that was my misunderstanding nd going forward I know that Hans Zimmer on Spitfire product doesnt mean it will sound like Hans Zimmer. You see we moved forward on a subject though civil discourse.

Haha haven't you seen me debating here???, haven't you seen me countless times call people and companies out for things I disagree with??? how can that be considered 'retiring to my safe space' ....It sounds like you may have been spending too much time indulging yourself in 'Facebook Political Debates' its all name calling and anger with you isnt it XD

And mate...for this kind of product I am the average Joe....no one who doesnt work in the audio field is impulse buying Hans Zimmer Strings out of the blue. So I am their audience, a composer. There are no composers out there who know every single aspect of every single product they own for their work so to say I am any less professional because I happen to not get every aspect of every library ever delivered to me is a bit of a stretch.

I do know my libraries pretty well, I work without a template and I know what does what. I have done in depth overviews of quite a few libraries by this point so you can see the level to which I dig into them. I also make them so I have a fair idea how they work too. I have spent time looking into and discussing things like UI design, human psychology and the ways people interact with things both visually and sonically...its something of a hobby for me. So knowing how deep I dive into libraries and the things I have learned about the way customers interact with UI's from both a developer and customer side.... I genuinely do believe that if I missed something in one of the many overviews I have done it is more the fault of the UI for not making it clear what I should do to make something work than it is me just being amateur.

Your whole post seems like its coming from pure anger rather than actually wanting to have a rational chat about any of this. There is a thread which is over 20 pages and I have a video of over 5 hours. If you don't get my position by now thats on you mate. If you don't like what I say or the way I do them, don't keep watching me. You really don't have to if it causes you so much angst. Like I say, I am free to do these things how I want to, and I present them as fair open and honest as I can. If you disagree with a point thats fine, but I don't have to agree with your disagreement.

I feel I am doing my bit to help the community! I jump in and help out where its relevant, I do composition livestreams an hours and hours of sample library reviews/vlogs/interviews on Youtube. What are you contributing? because if you are implying I don't care about helping the community you are very wrong mate. Life would be much more relaxing if I didn't care about composing and composers so much xD (I'd definitely sleep more)

Also don't get all aggressive and then scream mob mentality. There are plenty of people on both sides of these healthy debates. Don't start crying victim just to stop people talking.

-DJ
No, an echo chamber is exactly what I meant. What you are referring to is called a hug box.

So for the sake of transparency:

You spamming the forum and spreading FUD for weeks = the hero this community needs.
Me pointing out your questionable behavior = angry and irrational.
Paul pointing out your questionable behavior = passive aggressive.
John pointing out your questionable behavior = misjudging you as a person.

Curious how you are ok with putting others under the microscope but can't take a little critique yourself. No one is angry at you. Come on Daniel, lose the argument, not the person.

There's a big difference between not getting every aspect of a library and overlooking some basic features, then blaming the developer. My "bottle" argument, that you chose to ignore, is the perfect example of your lack of commitment and biased approach. Even with your casual "first look" format, I think you should show some professional courtesy and put a little effort in it, otherwise you will be just another kid on Youtube banging keys and making fart jokes. This goes beyond your expectations and the instant gratification aspect of a new library. It's about being fair to your peers. Yes, even those who don't give you NFRs. ;)

Bugs are an unfortunate aspect of every software development. One should judge a company on how they handle such issues. That's common sense. I bet you had your share of bug reports with HybridTwo, so you should know better. During the weeks prior to release, you were very vocal about your concerns regarding the new player and subtly tried to draw a connection between HZS and EastWest's Play initial state, lacking any sort of evidence or basis for critical thinking. FUD 101 right there.

You talk about accountability but you should also be accountable for what you spread around the web. It only takes a few misinformations repeated dozens of times (!!!) to create the illusion of truth. And that could seriously hurt Spitfire in the long run. The Eric Whitacre choir is just around the corner. Again, those guys are not corporate assholes deliberately trying to screw us, they are one of us, hard working composers. Yes we give our money to them and yes they should deliver, but you are blowing things way out of proportion to fit your agenda. I hope you are enjoying the free traffic. :)

To sum it up, here's a video of someone who chose to create something out of nothing, released one day after your "first look" went live. Same tools, same time frame. I'll let the video do the talking:

 

Johann F.

Member
@reutunes, looking forward to your thoughts on HZS! I'd prefer a zero-day review, but if Spitfire releases a fix before you finish your video, it would be nice to have a small addendum comparing both states of the library.

I appreciate your work and unbiased opinion. You coming here to ask just shows how much you care about delivering meaningful content instead of more digital noise. Respect!
 

ghandizilla

Active Member
I'm just under the impression Daniel was looking for a certain old fashioned Hans Zimmer sound. And though HZ has moved on to other soundscapes (which I find great), Daniel has a point: when you market something with this name, a fair amount of consumers will go after that sound, and could be disappointed, even angry given the price.

So, in one hand, the legato bug thing has been overdramatized, but for sure, such an obvious glitch on a release doesn't give a good impression, it has to be mentioned. In another hand, it seems important to have walkthroughs such as the one DJ did, to alert consumers about what they will get and most of all: what they will not get. This is really appreciable, and I do support DJ for taking on his time to make it. I also find what he says about the GUI fair: it takes too much space, in my workflow it would not be practical at all. Nevertheless, it's a young GUI, it was evidently challenging, time-and-money-consuming to make this new sampler a reality, we can't blame Spitfire for not getting everything right on the first strike.

Too bad it has taken the "did you stop asking me reviewing because of my honesty" road: these assertions can not be checked, so it will not help anyone going down that road.
 

blougui

Senior Member
Calling DJ a non-professional is an abus de langage or a total misconception of who he really is - and it's not the random kid on YT, mind you. Several trailer placements, feature film for Disney, recording his own music at AIR Lyndhurst, producing a commercial serie of sample hybrid instruments...Man, I'ld like to be as un-professional as he is !

What I see is rather a very talkative person, passionate and somewhat narcissic - I guess you have to when you ready to spend more than 5 hours filming yourself in front of your screen, "chatting" orally with people who write on a chat box. And to intervene on almost every HZS related thread for the sake of being sure no one infere who he really is or is not, is, well, quite something - a lot of self-confidence or lack thereof ?

May be we, you, all of us give too much importance to his video talks. May be SA gives him too much importance (no, I don't want to hear any argument about the 4Oish people they have to pay the wages for, come on, we're not talking humanitarian teams, here).

I find it kind of entertaining, all the drama. As DJ said, we're talking about VI, here. It's not a question of disrespecting anyone's work (or not disrespecting anyones money and purchase, btw) but at the end of the day, it's just one musician opinion, very vocal I must admit, partly followed by a bunch of viewers, but I'm confident it's not DJ's rant that make or break the launch of this amazing set of virtual instrumentationsbut rather the way SA responds to any discrepancy between the promise and the product.

But as we say in French : les promesses n'engagent que ceux qui les croient.

Promises only bind those who believe in them
.
 

novaburst

Senior Member
I disagree with this bit slightly. The onus shouldn't be on the customer to find faults with a product, the company themselves are responsible for quality assurance. If they release it buggy that fault lies with them, not the reviewers that point it out. It should be reviewed in the state its released, in my opinion of course.
If you cant review a product satisfactory because you came across some issues you simply should not review it until it is fixed or at least until you can get a satisfactory review, part of the problem is not known what the library can do or not being able to work it out, you should have spent a few days with the product at least to work things out and find work abounds, the next step if it found to be a problem is to report it not review it, get a ticket.
Any attitude should be I want to review this product until I am satisfied I am doing things correct or the issues are sorted

I feel like while calling out companies shortcomings will hurt in the short term
And that is the very thing you should avoid putting yourself in this position not understanding every issue on the library makes you blind to the damage you may or may not be coursing that's irresponsible and you may as well be drunk or consumed from head to toe with alcohol when you cant comprehend the dynamics of damaged coursed
when you say things on a subject or software you don't fully understand especially with the hi profile position you hold.

I feel the point of reviewers is to actually help the industries they are in. They create a degree of accountability
At least give them the chance to take account by reporting it and getting a ticket.

If you don't call out a company when they do something wrong there is no incentive for them to improve themselves going forward
how do you know a developer is not trying there very best, what you are actually saying is you don't trust the developer including the one in question or you would not feel the need to make that statement, if you cant trust Spitfire to go through the correct procedure and correct the bugs you really should not be purchasing or reviewing anything from them, if the case is you do trust them then let them get on with the program and don't interfere by premature reviews, you just become a man shooting a gun at them with a blind fold on thinking you grazed them on the leg and oh they will get over it but the damage you actually did was course internal bleeding and the doctors could not revive him.

When we have this instant media at our hands its very important how we use it while I may only have a pea shooter that will do no damage the more rating and popularity I gain that pea shooter becomes a gun so I cant use it the way I used the pea shooter.

Just because they are developers does not mean there not humans in that team are very normal people that can be effected by what is said on the net, so to your followers you are yer yer your the man, but to some you are the one that coursed unemployment, so while your followers are hear today and gone tomorrow you coursed a lasting effect on the Developer

If your ok with that and go with the attitude of so what, who cares, its the developers fault, i say what I want,....
When you say things with out the care of what it does to others your just a self centred person and only care about what it is your saying regardless of any consequence you course.
 

DarkestShadow

Senior Member
since it is already out for purchase I think it is extremely important that people are warned about bugs in the library. Then they can for example hold of and wait till an update is released and people are confirming that the bugs are sufficiently resolved.
 
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blougui

Senior Member
May be I misread, sorry if I did.

ven with your casual "first look" format, I think you should show some professional courtesy and put a little effort in it, otherwise you will be just another kid on Youtube banging keys and making fart jokes.
If it would be anyone else as a professional composer-producer, I wouldn't mind the opinion underlining the 1st look. But however unprepared such an "open the box" is, the fact it's voiced by someone who is indeed an active actor of the VI Scene and composing for the media is at least telling.

Anyway anyhow, I think we care too much about the most vocal ones,as if they were the champions of the more shy and discreet people. I guess they're not.

I often found Mr Thompson too thin skinned for the (online) game - surely he's not, considering how successful his company is. But there goes passion, I guess...
 

acomposer

New Member
since it is already out for purchase I think it is extremely important that people are warned about bugs in the library.
Yes, that's great and I agree. But one has to ask whether the same level of scrutiny and attention is present in DJs reviews of other developers products. If so, that's cool. From what I have read, Spitfire do seem to be getting singled out for a little more attention than is the norm. Would you not agree?

Considering the number of posts and threads on the issue thus far.
 

Jaap

Yes, that's an alto flute
I can't help but wonder if there is also a forum for Electricians out there and if it is has the same passion and heat when a new voltage meter by the Hans Zimmer amongst Electricians (there must be!) gets released and reviewed.
 

DarkestShadow

Senior Member
Yes, that's great and I agree. But one has to ask whether the same level of scrutiny and attention is present in DJs reviews of other developers products. If so, that's cool. From what I have read, Spitfire do seem to be getting singled out for a little more attention than is the norm. Would you not agree?

Considering the number of posts and threads on the issue thus far.
Well, that's propably because there is a lot of attention on the product than on others... thus also on the flaws - and it's one of the most expensive products on the market and can't be resold or refunded thus it is... non-trivial, to put it extremely mildly, if it is full of worms.
 

robgb

I was young once
To sum it up, here's a video of someone who chose to create something out of nothing, released one day after your "first look" went live.
Insert eye roll here.

It amazes me that an advocate for good and useable software, a guy who took a lot of money out of his own pocket and spent over five hours running through a new library in a live stream, showing both its weaknesses and strengths to help the rest of us decide whether or not we want to spend six hundred or more fucking dollars of our hard-earned money on that library gets vilified by a bunch of Hans Zimmer and Spitfire fanboys because he had concerns that Spitfire had abandoned Kontakt and was critical of the new engine. I mean, Jesus Christ, people, it's a sample library, not a gift from God. If it has problems, it has problems. Pointing them out does not make the messenger a villain.

I don't know Daniel James. I've seen a few of his videos and have been impressed by his work, that's about it. So the only dog I have in this ridiculous schoolyard brawl is my wallet. I was initially impressed by Spitfire's walkthroughs of this product. But my first inclination when I see a thread like this—especially when the OP (an alleged reviewer) wonders whether or not he should review an apparently flawed product (I mean, WTF?)—is snap that wallet shut and wait. Let the fanboys sacrifice their green gifts to their God. I'll hang back until the dust clears and see if I can find another honest review before I make my final decision.

Business 101. The customer is always right. You don't come on a public forum and blast someone because he complained about your product.
 
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Sibelius19

Music is just color and rhythm --Debussy
To sum it up, here's a video of someone who chose to create something out of nothing, released one day after your "first look" went live. Same tools, same time frame. I'll let the video do the talking:

This emphesizes even more that it's almost just like a "Tundra" 2.0. He layered brass in there and other stuff, too. It does sound good, but I'm wondering, is there anything really "new" here? It's labeled as groundbreaking and all that jazz. The parts featuring the HZS (after the brassy intro) lasted more than half the track and were mostly quiet and intimate, exactly DJ's point.
Tundra and Ark 2 fit that billing nicely. So it may be difficult for someone who has either one of those to find a compelling reason to pick it up, especially when Tundra is cheaper. I think Daniel even mentioned that --they're competing with themselves on this one. It would have been better to offer a more distinct product, which doesn't really overlap with other libraries they've already released.
From my perspective it's like this. It's perfect for some wealthy composer out there who is lacking maybe a few orchestral colors, and can afford to shell out that kind of money on a whim. And maybe that's who they're reallty aiming at anyway.
 

novaburst

Senior Member
"Clarity is job #1
Clarity is the first and most important job of any interface. To be effective using an interface you've designed, people must be able to recognize what it is,
Read the user manual, it gets you further than trying to figure things out by starring at the GUI and clicking around with your mouse, and gives you a much more broader understanding of product you are using.
 

Jazzy_Joe

New Member
The bottom line is a guy bought this library, and feels it is not what was advertised, and is not entirely happy with it, and is sharing his opinion here.

I know it can take a while to learn the nuances of a library, how to perform it in correctly, sweet spots and each has its own quirks etc...
But that being said.... if I had a gig on, 24 hours to turn it around, client wanted 'Zimmer', and I shilled out for this library either through impulse or marketing or otherwise, I'd be pissed if it took more than 5 hours for me to figure out how to use it with a deadline looming, AND legatos were broken on launch. What is the learning curve on this library, do we need to put in 40 hours with it to 'understand' it? Sorry, I'm being a little sarcastic but hopefully you get my point!

I'm pretty sure we've all been stung by expensive purchases in the past that just don't get used or certainly haven't paid for themselves over time, and I think these forums have been on fire the last few days as this resonates on both sides of the conversation.

I also understand Reuben's position and the position he has put himself in this debate, but feel like if he is serious about reviewing these products for us, he has to maintain integrity to his initial opinion on it.
Checking if its OK to post his review here first, so as not to ruffle many feathers, has weakened that opinion for me a bit. Don't get me wrong, I do watch most of Reuben's shows I appreciate and agree with a lot of reviews, but stick to your guns man, I want to hear your thoughts! :2thumbs:

Saying all that, I'm in bed with Spitfire to the tune of a couple of grand, generally very happy with the products I've purchased, watch the live announcements, get embroiled in the teasers and launch events like everyone else, but with a degree of caution. This forum over the last few days has been more enthralling than any product launch!
 

acomposer

New Member
Well, that's propably because there is a lot of attention on the product than on others... thus also on the flaws - and it's one of the most expensive products on the market and can't be resold or refunded thus it is... non-trivial, to put it extremely mildly, if it is full of worms.
Do you think 'full of worms' might be a bit of an exaggeration? Do you own the product yourself?

The words 'bandwagon' and 'jumping' do kinda spring to mind on this thread.
 
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