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For live usage, I want to to use velocity and not mod wheel to control expression, what should I do?

Discussion in 'SAMPLE Talk' started by Hag01, Oct 11, 2017 at 10:44 AM.

  1. Hag01

    Hag01 Senior Member

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    Nov 1, 2016
    I need virtual instruments for music production but also for live usage.
    unfortunately, in some of the best sounding virtual instruments, the expression is controlled by mod wheel and there isn't an option to change it to velocity expression control.

    IMO, for example, it is completely unexceptable to use mod wheel or expression pedal or wind controller to control expression\dynamics in brass or strings patches, in a live situation.

    Anyone has a solution for this problem?
    I'm sure I'm not the only one in VI-CONTROL who want\need to use those virtual instruments live.
     
  2. Polkasound

    Polkasound Senior Member

    Expression is a fluid motion, so a continuous controller like a wind controller, pedal with a potentiometer, or wheel is required to control it. Velocity only determines the initial volume of a note. I've never used anything but a standard keyboard, but maybe you'd like to consider one of those newer Seaboard Rise-type keyboards where you can control expression/dynamics right from the keyboard keys themselves.
     
  3. Andrew

    Andrew Member

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    As Polkasound said, having fluid control over dynamics for any sort of sustained note is much more useful than having that dynamic level determined only once by velocity. That being said, there are some libraries that allow dynamics to be selected by initial velocity, partiularly for short articulations (where the note is so short it makes sense to have only one dynamic level per note).

    Off the top of my head I can say that the Orchestral Tools libraries allow for this option and due to their mostly 'build it yourself' patch approach, so do the VSL libraries (even on their sustain-type patches). The bottom line is that this functionality will only be there if the developer has put it into their VI.

    And lastly, I am no Kontakt wizard, but perhaps there is someone on these forums that knows how to do some 'under the hood' tinkering to achieve what you're looking for :)
     
  4. pmcrockett

    pmcrockett Senior Member

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    If you use a scripting program such as Pure Data (you could also do it internally within Kontakt), you can intercept incoming MIDI data and set mod wheel value equal to the velocity. This would let you use velocity control even in libraries that don't support it.
     
  5. AllanH

    AllanH Senior Member

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    I would map to aftertouch. That's a pretty intuitive at least to me. E.g. press harder for higher dynamic layer.
     
  6. Eloy

    Eloy Member

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    Los Angeles
    Here’s the deal. A man only has 2 hands, 2 legs and head. You have to pick one of those to control your expression and if your software doesn’t allow it - then change your software. I use virtual orchestral instruments for live shows. To control them a combination of pedals and breath controllers. Check out this link
     
    Saxer and EgM like this.
  7. MatFluor

    MatFluor Senior Member

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    Switzerland
    A continuous controller is vital.

    I recently made a short Kontakt Multiscripts to map Velocity to a CC value in another post if you still need something like that.
     
  8. ohernie

    ohernie Senior Member

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    Isn't using only velocity to control an expensive orchestra softsynth a waste of money? Why would you buy an instrument with that level of expression capability if you don't plan on using it? Seems to me that that is what Sound Canvas VA, Garritan and Miroslav are for.
     
  9. Tfis

    Tfis Senior Member

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    Jan 13, 2016
  10. DrJazz9781

    DrJazz9781 Active Member

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    Pianists across the Universe control expression with velocity and pedal.
    I think it can be done with just velocity and pedal.
     
  11. Saxer

    Saxer Senior Member

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    Frankfurt/Germany
    Depends on the software host you are using to play your sampler. If you use Mainstage or LogicX there is the midi plugin "Modifier" which does exacly that in the default setting (Velocity to CC1).
     
  12. Joe Maron

    Joe Maron Member

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  13. FriFlo

    FriFlo Senior Member

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    Besides the already mentioned Seaboard there is also the possibility of getting a masterkeyboard with poly pressure to control dynamics (or any parameter) per note. However, there are few controllers that are good. I can only recommend the rare Kurweil Midiboard, wich I use in the studio. I honestly wouldn't want to have to carry it to gigs as it is a heavy beast and you probably will never find one to buy. And even with this, it is not straight forward, as no Kontakt instrument is able to process poly pressure. Therefore, I would say it is most practical to use pedals and/or breath controller. Finally, you have to accept the fact, that there is no chance you can ever achieve the same kind of detail with playing live as you can get by programming/playing individual lines in a sequencer. That is why the best sounding sample libraries are not always the best choice when it comes to playing live! Depending on the kind of music, I would suggest looking at something like symphobia and for instrument solos maybe something like Sample Modeling. If you want to go into detail, I suppose there is no way around getting accustomed with a program like Max MSP to program some routings. Some of that is also with doing Kontakt multi scripts. Best of luck!
     
  14. Iskra

    Iskra Senior Member

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    But we pianist are using a percussive sound where most of the energy is lost on the initial attack of the note. Strings or brass or woodwinds are not like that except on a few articulations (and those articulations are already usually mapped to, guess what? velocity). ;)
    Even in my old days of live keyboard playing, an expression pedal was a must for me, way before the the days of übergigantic libraries. Expressiveness of a continuous controller in some sounds can't be matched.
     
  15. OP
    OP
    Hag01

    Hag01 Senior Member

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    Nov 1, 2016
    Ok my friends, thank you all for your help, I discovered that for orchestral strings, brass and woodwinds sounds, for live keyboard rig, Halion Symphonic Orchestra works great for me.

    This is such a smart move from Steinberg to give full content demos of their products, I wish more brands would do so.

    Halion Symphonic Orchestra patches are remarkably playable on keys, and maybe not the best sounding for serious productions, but for live playing they are definitely sound good enough.

    It is also an affordable product, as I'm sure VSL and Orchestral Tools would be even better, but they cost 10 times more, and to buy such an expansive libraries only for live keys palying is a bit overkill IMHO.

    Now I just have to find a black metal band to use those sounds live (or maybe just find a pop band and keep those sounds in my home studio for self amusement;)).
     
  16. wsalembi

    wsalembi Member

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    I recognise your need. Have a look at a related thread I opened for string libraries https://vi-control.net/community/th...namics-with-key-velocity-instead-of-cc.65480/

    My ideal behavior for live performance would be that the initial dynamic layer is set by key velocity but can progress to other layers using aftertouch, mod wheel or expression pedal. Unfortunately there are not many libraries that support this.
     
  17. ohernie

    ohernie Senior Member

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    Get Bome Midi Translator and you can map anything to anything.
     
  18. OP
    OP
    Hag01

    Hag01 Senior Member

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    Nov 1, 2016
    wsalembi and ohernie, thank you.

    After few days of playing with Halion Symphonic Orchestra, I'm not sure it sounds so good.

    Also, if I'm not mistaken, I found out that I have to buy Halion Sonic if I want to run Halion Symphonic Orchestra on Cantabile or Brainspawn Forte, so I'm not sure it is worth it.

    I'm looking for something better, IK Multimedia Miroslav Philharmonik 2 maybe?
     

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