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EW Voices of Opera...Opinions?

TigerTheFrog

Amateur
As the female singer sings a phrase of Puccini's "O mio babbino Caro," I guess I'll have to put up my live version of that using Organic Samples' Solo Opera Legato. What she is singing sounds like nonsense syllables to me, so why not this?


This how this library sounds when I plonk it out live. Imagine what people like you could do with it if you took a little time?
 

alanb

Senior Member
Are you sure? I use EWSC and have no problems have very little problem can with some massaging can with a lot of work get it to say whatever I want. ;)

Heh.

'English' and 'Phonetic' weren't cutting it at all. I tried VoTox`......

The 'y' didn't sound right by itself as the lead-off syllable in front of an 'o', so I tried putting an arbitrarily-short 'EE' in front of the 'y'. After circa 17.2 hours of tearfully adjusting each letter's relative timeline length, volume envelope and CC11 envelope, I thought that I had reached something marginally close to a halfway-decent demihemisemi-recognizable "yo" syllable.......

. . . and then I played the same syllable on some different keys and heard something dramatically different, depending upon which note I was playing.

On some notes, the EE segues smoothly into the 'y' so that it actually sounds like a proper 'yo'.

On other notes the 'EE' sounds like an odd percussive blip, separate and preceding the 'y'.

On other notes, I hear a blend of 'EE' and 'ah'.

On still other notes, I hear mostly 'ah'. Little or no trace of the 'EE' or the 'y', never mind the 'o'.

The hell . . . ? ? ?

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There is a VoTox for a hard 'g', but it's usually barely audible, and adjusting the volume and CC11 values makes almost no difference (even just using the close mics with no reverb) — on some notes it sounds like it's being 'swallowed' by the singers, and on other notes it's not there at all, I can only hear the VoTox vowel that follows it.

So, for example, 'gEE' will often sound more like just plain 'EE', sometimes with a very brief, weird 'blank space' preceding it (again, it depends upon which note I happen to be pressing).

----------------------------

I was curious about Realivox Blue, and I realize that videos put up by strangers on The Youtubes don't necessarily reflect a given library's actual capabilities. But I sat stoically through the first 1:03 of this "Love Me Tender" recreation, until I heard "Never let me ohhhhhhhhh" and shed tears stronger and heavier than even The King himself could elicit from my cynical, world-weary orbs:


----------------------------

"Amazing . . . place?"


Is a convincing hard 'g' sound really that hard to reproduce?
 
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The difference between OrganicSamples' inexpensive single patch and the entire EW library is striking.
I still use that Organic Samples patch every single time, this single legato technique is much more versatile than I originally thought.

Back to topic: I will try these new voices with the EWCC, even if I don't really get the point to record these solo performances from nearly clichee operas
 

Morodiene

Senior Moment
Heh.

'English' and 'Phonetic' weren't cutting it at all. I tried VoTox`......

The 'y' didn't sound right by itself as the lead-off syllable in front of an 'o', so I tried putting an arbitrarily-short 'EE' in front of the 'y'. After circa 17.2 hours of tearfully adjusting each letter's relative timeline length, volume envelope and CC11 envelope, I thought that I had reached something marginally close to a halfway-decent demihemisemi-recognizable "yo" syllable.......

. . . and then I played the same syllable on some different keys and heard something dramatically different, depending upon which note I was playing.

On some notes, the EE segues smoothly into the 'y' so that it actually sounds like a proper 'yo'.

On other notes the 'EE' sounds like an odd percussive blip, separate and preceding the 'y'.

On other notes, I hear a blend of 'EE' and 'ah'.

On still other notes, I hear mostly 'ah'. Little or no trace of the 'EE' or the 'y', never mind the 'o'.

The hell . . . ? ? ?

----------------------------

There is a VoTox for a hard 'g', but it's usually barely audible, and adjusting the volume and CC11 values makes almost no difference (even just using the close mics with no reverb) — on some notes it sounds like it's being 'swallowed' by the singers, and on other notes it's not there at all, I can only hear the VoTox vowel that follows it.

So, for example, 'gEE' will often sound more like just plain 'EE', sometimes with a very brief, weird 'blank space' preceding it (again, it depends upon which note I happen to be pressing).

----------------------------

I was curious about Realivox Blue, and I realize that videos put up by strangers on The Youtubes don't necessarily reflect a given library's actual capabilities. But I sat stoically through the first 1:03 of this "Love Me Tender" recreation, until I heard "Never let me ohhhhhhhhh" and shed tears stronger and heavier than even The King himself could elicit from my cynical, world-weary orbs:


----------------------------

"Amazing . . . place?"


Is a convincing hard 'g' sound really that hard to reproduce?
For choirs, directors will often suggest they sing a "k" instead of a "g" to get a more percussive sound. So "Gloria" turns into "Kloria". I believe I used this trick when working in Votox. Likewise if you are trying to make a "j" or "g" sound like "joy" or "giraffe", then another trick is to use a "ch" sound, so "choy" or "chiraffe" to get more sound out of the consonants.

These are just a couple of examples of things you have to do differently when using SC, and to a trained singer they make some sense.

And yes, each voice part will need its own adjustments to get as legato a sound as possible. This is the problem you were having with Yo. Use of the portamento and manually playing around the the lengths of the vowels can help too.

You were right to do EE-Oh, which is how that diphthong sounds out. I did this pretty much for every diphthong, and I did everything in VoTox.

This is not a playable sort of thing. Words are just far too complex to just be able to play it in (unless you're just working with preset words). Even after all the work I did, I would then overdub my voice on soprano, alto, and tenor parts for 2-3 times on each part singing in a slightly different sound to put in the mix. This is how I achieved a good legato and a bit more presence to the sound.

But what else is there that can do this but SC with a big choir sound and the ability to use whatever words in whatever language you like?
 

Morodiene

Senior Moment
Good to see you back! I hope you're recovering nicely. Recovery sometimes take a lot longer than one would expect.
Yes, thank you! It really wasn't a huge accident...everyone walked away. But it scrambled my brains a bit as well as messed up my neck and back. After over a year things are getting a bit better. :)
 

Morodiene

Senior Moment
As the female singer sings a phrase of Puccini's "O mio babbino Caro," I guess I'll have to put up my live version of that using Organic Samples' Solo Opera Legato. What she is singing sounds like nonsense syllables to me, so why not this?


This how this library sounds when I plonk it out live. Imagine what people like you could do with it if you took a little time?
Ya, I don't care for the sound of either the EWVO soprano or tenor, but there aren't many opera singers these days that I really like (I'm just too into the old school sound). I like the OS sound here, but words, words words! are so darn important.
 

TigerTheFrog

Amateur
Ya, I don't care for the sound of either the EWVO soprano or tenor, but there aren't many opera singers these days that I really like (I'm just too into the old school sound). I like the OS sound here, but words, words words! are so darn important.
I get using words in choral libraries, but I think if you want a solo vocal singing lyrics at this point in time, you will not be able to get anywhere near a human being. (Like you!) The technology is not there yet, and, in my opinion, that's a good thing. @Mike Greene could keep adding sounds to Realivox Blue and I'm sure people would pay plenty for them, but I don't think he wants to.

On the other hand, I like the OS opera library not just because it has an impressive legato (with no sudden leaps in velocity in transitions), but because of its young singer, Ekaterina Mamysheva. If I play the right slow melody with this library, I often feel like I can get real emotion out of it, and that's a tribute to her as well as to the talented people who recorded and scripted this library. Without words, the human voice is just another expressive instrument, like OS's wonderful horn.
 

Morodiene

Senior Moment
I get using words in choral libraries, but I think if you want a solo vocal singing lyrics at this point in time, you will not be able to get anywhere near a human being. (Like you!) The technology is not there yet, and, in my opinion, that's a good thing. @Mike Greene could keep adding sounds to Realivox Blue and I'm sure people would pay plenty for them, but I don't think he wants to.

On the other hand, I like the OS opera library not just because it has an impressive legato (with no sudden leaps in velocity in transitions), but because of its young singer, Ekaterina Mamysheva. If I play the right slow melody with this library, I often feel like I can get real emotion out of it, and that's a tribute to her as well as to the talented people who recorded and scripted this library. Without words, the human voice is just another expressive instrument, like OS's wonderful horn.
I know, and I'm picky. So I just sing what I want and record that. But a good tenor is hard to find (every soprano's problem) ;)
 

danbo

Active Member
@douggibson @Wolfie2112 Few will likely use it for opera, unless they're a composer who wants to hear how their composition sounds without paying a million for a production. Should be good for students too in that sense.

For the rest of us I think the question is how well it works for classically oriented vocal lines. For example I'm composing for a video game at the moment and am working in a Renaissance style to fit the milieu. The examples sound are in an Italian opera style, and the library seems to lean that way because of the two artists.

Doing a voice sample is incredibly difficult, honestly listening to the comparisons above like from @Robert_G (thanks for that by the way) on a pair of Stax 009 electrostatic headphones shows problems with them all. Roberts point about how easy they are to program is probably the more relevant one.
 

kitekrazy

Senior Member
Hi Sarah!
What ! The famous "contre ut" is not sampled ? It's a sacrilege... Del Monaco, Alfredo Kraus, Franco Corelli, please come back ! Do You know my personal opinion ? Human voice is the most complicated instrument and it's quite impossible to transcribe emotions, musicality and reffinement. With all due respect for the developers and the singers who lent their voices.
So agree. High C's are so different from voice to voice. Alfredo made then sound easy.
 

kitekrazy

Senior Member
Ouch. Some of the "tone" is nice for individual notes, but once he starts to play a few ----not even close.

The whole notion of using a sample library for opera so insane to me.

I mean.....where are you going to find a person with a voice ? Impossible.
Next up is voices like Robert Plant and Sammy Hagar.

I guess if I had a composition that involves income I would just hire a singer. We have the technology to make anyone sound good.
 

kitekrazy

Senior Member
I agree with You ! Personally, I had the opportunity to hear a tenor singing the famous aria from 'La fille du régiment". Too many C4, in full voice...awful (personal opinion). I'd rather sing "Lenski aria" from Eugène Oneguyne or even the role of Don José ("La fleur" but also the superb duet with Micaela) or "Una furtiva Lagrima", for example. There are no C4 but these arias are so beautiful. Years ago, I could sing to D4 (rehearsal) and sometimes I had the impression I was a competitor ! I was probably silly and thru the years I realized that vocal performances (high notes but also volume) have nothing to do with music. I'm satisfied with my Bb3 or occasionally the B3.

Do You know what ? Once, somebody asked me if I would be able to sing the role of Rodolphe... in french ! I tried: "Que cette main est froide, laissez-moi la réchauffer". I started to laugh (I could not sing anymore !!!) and I said Okay, sounds really better in the original version ! Now, "The Messiah", in english or "Die Schöpfung" in German, no problem at all. But how gorgeous it is to sing an opera in italian ! God must be Italian !
I have Monty Python's attitude of French. Listen to 5 singers sing in French and you have 5 different ways of diction. There's always the rumor that many arias never had high C's (according to Pavarotti Verdi never wrote higher than an A) but where doctored by publishing companies. Una furtiva Lagrima is to me one of the most beautiful arias ever written.
 

Morodiene

Senior Moment
I have Monty Python's attitude of French. Listen to 5 singers sing in French and you have 5 different ways of diction. There's always the rumor that many arias never had high C's (according to Pavarotti Verdi never wrote higher than an A) but where doctored by publishing companies. Una furtiva Lagrima is to me one of the most beautiful arias ever written.
And don't forget Verdi tuning (A=432) - which makes a TON of difference in the passaggio, and also in the overall darkness of the sound. High C's are over-rated. For sopranos, they really are for sounding crazy. The High B-flat is the best high note. ;)
 

kitekrazy

Senior Member
And don't forget Verdi tuning (A=432) - which makes a TON of difference in the passaggio, and also in the overall darkness of the sound. High C's are over-rated. For sopranos, they really are for sounding crazy. The High B-flat is the best high note. ;)
There's only one recording of Caruso singing a high C and that is the Faust aria. I always wondered in this Wagner aria, there is one where there is high B-flats was actually written by him.
 

kitekrazy

Senior Member
And they are lower on the food chain. Ab above that C (min 6th) is about the top of
standard Opera repetoire. Thomas Ades, has an A (maj 6 above high C) in his Opera, but only 2-3 people can pull that off.

Offenbach's “Les Contes d'Hoffmann", which still gets performed regularly has the Ab in the doll song.
I've seen it a few times at the Met.
Back in the 90's there is this band called Steelheart and the dude pulls of a G above tenor high C in a song known as Angel Eyes or Never Let You Go.
 
OP
Parsifal666

Parsifal666

I don't even own a DAW, I'm just a troll.
Back in the 90's there is this band called Steelheart and the dude pulls of a G above tenor high C in a song known as Angel Eyes or Never Let You Go.
That was falsetto, not true voice. And that goes for a lot of those supersonic rock singers (Plant, Gillan, King Diamond, etc.)...besides guys like Ronnie Dio and Graham Bonnet, who were more chest-pull oriented in technique and rarely took the easy fake-out.

Actually, Dio and Bonnet were supernaturally high for male singers of any stripe (pretty sure Dio hit Eb over C a number of times full voice, while Bonnet hit a few yoweling As)...so they're the exception to the falsettic rule lol.
 
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danbo

Active Member
There are so many singers who have remote recording services, that I would use something like that over a library.
Have you done this? Do you have links for any singers who do this? How does the recording work, you would need to pay for a studio too I assume? Costs?

But..... I get that people get a kick out of the software stuff. The results are better, and takes much less time in my experience.
Well again students and composer cloud - and also $200 is cheaper than any singer you might pay surely. It's all cost, cost cost. Heck, I work in game music, the AAA's are investing in deep learning systems that reliably reproduce spoken lines, so they don't have to pay a voice actor. About half the time or something they'll front live musicians, but not infrequently want it all VI. At the moment working on a indie game which has budget for all sampled.
 
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