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Mike Greene

Senior Member
Moderator
The reason is we haven’t been hacked yet. No pirated libraries. PLAY was the worst best decision ever made. Lol and crying a bit. Some (not all by any means) of the EW haters are actually the guys that can’t pirate the stuff. It’s pisses them off. 90% of kontakt library users are pirates.
Personally, I think that was a really smart decision for that reason alone, even aside from the other reasons, like NI fees (you guys are saving a fortune, especially at the rates back then) and lack of control when another company hosts your libraries. (Don't even get me started on the hoops I have to jump through to make things NKS compatible - all so NI can sell more hardware.)
Play actually has some advantages over Kontakt. And it’s pretty good these days. Hollywood choirs interface is decent. It’s not all bad at all. And soon...
I'll agree with that. Play is running well here now. Play Pro would still be nice, but I'm happy.
 

X-Bassist

Senior Member
The reason is we haven’t been hacked yet. No pirated libraries. PLAY was the worst best decision ever made. Lol and crying a bit. Some (not all by any means) of the EW haters are actually the guys that can’t pirate the stuff. It’s pisses them off. 90% of kontakt library users are pirates. Play actually has some advantages over Kontakt. And it’s pretty good these days. Hollywood choirs interface is decent. It’s not all bad at all. And soon...

So the reason you haven’t been hacked yet is because you haven’t released Play Pro? Updating play to pro or adding some extra keyswitch patches will suddenly make Play hackable?

I suppose I’m missing a link there that isn’t clearly evident (not sure how we got to hacking) but I’ll assume some trade secrets are involved. Ok. So how about just making a large variety of keyswitch patches that might make using HO (specifically HS and HB) a little more user friendly? Jumping from track to track just to record shorts or pizz for a few bars really does slow down the composing and editing process. It’s what keeps me from reaching for HS and HB and has me buying other libraries.

But I really do appreciate the responses Nick. I’m sorry if you haven’t gotten enough respect on these forums in the past. Your end, planning, recording, editing, setting up the instruments (when your allowed to) - the “sound guru” on HO, SD3, etc- has been a major achievement in samples. But not because Doug came up with a sample company or made his own player, it was because you put the work into getting the best players, instruments, gear and took the time to record and edit those samples to make them the best they could be (and something you would want to personally use).

As a mixer and record engineer I know the work that went into HO. Seems a shame to take that work and stick it into a player that falls short for so many people that they would spend the money for the sounds and then not use them. I understand the concern about hacking, but surely there is a way to update play to be a bit more flexible without comprimising the hackability of the product. Capsule for instance does so much to allow some customizing (layered keyswitches and such) without effecting the underlying engine (it’s even simple to use) it seems a shame HO in Play can’t be similar.

I think almost everyone would forgive the absence of Play Pro (and even forget it’s mention) if play just had assignable keyswitches to combine patches and round robin selection (or de-selection) options. Not asking for access to the samples, just a little more flexibility to bring it up to speed with how most composers work these days. Apologies if these things are far beyond your control (been there) but hopefully when Doug asks what might be a good way to revamp the libraries and get more sales, you might mention it. HO will still be on my SSD, waiting for that eventful day. Thanks again.
 

TeamLeader

Active Member
Personally, I think that was a really smart decision for that reason alone, even aside from the other reasons, like NI fees (you guys are saving a fortune, especially at the rates back then) and lack of control when another company hosts your libraries.

Hiya Mike.

Thank for chiming in about the piracy stuff. Hadn't even considered that as we don't deal with no stinking pirates.

Our main concern was more about delivering what was promised. As I get older I aint got time to wait LOL!!!
 
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Cory Pelizzari

Cory Pelizzari

(Solonoid Studio)
Thread starter
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I stumbled upon this thread and have a couple things to say. Since the beginning of virtual instruments there has been a ton of misinformation floating around about libraries. Remember all the guys that insisted GPO was so much better than EWQLSO? GG wasn’t even present at the GPO recordings. He bought bits and pieces from people. It was a con, but it worked for a while. Over a year. Then there was the Cinebrass 1 day recording that was so much better than Hollywood Brass until.... wait for it.... it wasn’t. The list goes on and on. Vienna started the whole legato thing and everyone just jumped on the band wagon and acted like they invented true legato. VSL didn’t get enough respect for what they did. From me either. I was too busy competing and I thought they had made a mistake with the sound.

Back to Hollywood Choirs

Sound- This might be the only choir library without any noise reduction. That makes a huge difference. We did some things equipment and money wise that goes way beyond what our competition has done with maybe one exception. Guys, most of the choir libraries don’t sound that great. Some do sound great. Sometimes it seems that some of you simply can’t hear the difference between a bad sounding library like that old Soundiron one that everyone loved and one of 8 Dio’s newer ones that sound good. I don’t know what to say about that. Some of this stuff has weird imaging, tons of noise reduction, tunnel sound, very little dynamics, vibrato that’s fighting itself, slow attacks etc.. That’s why I make a point about the sound. It’s an attempt to highlight a feature. It’s not used car talk. The best equipment available, great hall and singers and a great engineer with proper dynamics recorded pays off. If we use Shawn Murphy, guess what? It might be the best sounding..... Hollywood Choirs tries to do one thing better than everyone else. And that’s a hyper dynamic, word building, great sounding choir. It won’t sound great in every Acapella unless you really master WordBuilder, but in a piece of music it just works with no effort. And it has no equal in that respect.

Legato-wise this library is poor. We just did a couple quick things as an add on. But, in my experience, the word builder makes the library sound very real and connected. It lends a lot more realism than legato patches in most instances. Unless you just want a legato vowel sound, then there are much better options out there.

Staccato wise this library is poor. We chose not to focus on that at all. You can however use WordBuilder and play staccato and it sounds fine unless you want hyper aggressive and short stuff. Then your fkd.

If you dismiss the word building as a gimmick you are really missing out. Most choral music will greatly benefit from this feature. Because you have control over everything including dynamics and timing, wordbuilding is superior to prerecorded phrases or words. —- That is most of the time. If you base your composition off the feel and timing of a prerecorded phrase, it will probably sound great.

If you can only have one choir library, what do you choose?

The guy that started this thread is an a$$. Why? He accused us of buying reviews. F that guy. He smugly says we are lost in some time warp or some $hit. The internet is great until people with miniature John thomas’ Decide they are going to vomit over people that deserve a bit of respect. He didn’t quite get it. That’s fine. It will happen, but he should have spent the time that he took to make that disrespectful video on learning the product.

You can say whatever you want about me, but I have contributed a lot to the composer community. I love you guys and what we do. Do you think I needed to make this choir library. And share it? Nope. I wanted to complete my 20 year wordbuilding journey with something I could be proud of. Remember Voices Of The Apocalypse? Some of you speak like we are some kind of charlatans. It’s ridiculous. We made the most popular by a mile orchestral library ever - EWQLSO. People really liked and used this library for over a decade, some still use it. We made some of the most popular and deep ethnic products ever - Silk, Ra. We started the trend and made some great and hugely successful epic percussion libraries - SD 1-3. We made what was the best piano library at the time and is still great QL Pianos. Symphonic Choirs was massively successful and popular library in spite of its word building flaws. Virtual Instrument of the year for a reason. Also a trend setter. We made Hollywood Orchestra with the best talent out there including Sean Murphy and Thomas Bergersen. We spared no expense or effort, and in my opinion that library is the best complete orchestra there is to this day, along with Spitfire probably. We also made the best reverb for film composers there is - Spaces 2. You can’t dismiss all that when you talk about us. Thanks to everyone else who has been fair minded and reasonable.

This is the most convoluted, egotistical and frankly childishly personal reply I've ever seen from a developer towards a review with rather tame negative feedback. This is the real world, where people don't automatically agree with or support your vision. Resorting to insulting language against a reviewer and making a big deal out of a few things I said that weren't even that harsh, is quite unprofessional and displays the kind of rash behaviour sample developers need to avoid if they intend on keeping their customers happy and their reputation intact.

Standing on a soap box and claiming how incredibly awesome your company is, while spurting offensive comments to the reviewer, is disgusting. I've already maintained that the library has plenty of flaws - no amount of passive aggression will change that - but I also had some good things to say about it, which were clearly not good enough for you considering your attitude.

On a side note, many customers of EW are fans of Nick Phoenix's work on Stormdrum, Ra and the first two Hollywood libraries. It's not a stretch to claim that since Doug's still unexplained and vicious attack on Nick way back when, the quality of EW libraries has continually degraded. That wasn't my fault - it is the fault of those who compromised the relationship and flow that EW had going with Nick and his team.

Honestly, your reply speaks for itself so I have nothing else to say about it. I go by evidence only. I don't know you so I refuse to harbour any resentment towards you and I say these words with a general sense of respect for you as a human being - toughen up and don't let negative reviews get to you. If you're still consumed by the dilemma of negative customer feedback, post all you want. I'll let you have the last say, but it certainly won't stop or resolve any negative customer feedback or unwillingness to part with their money for the product in question.
 

StatKsn

Active Member
One thing to note is that there are much more competitors now than then. Many EWQL libraries are a bit getting old, some more than 10 years old. In the past there may be a few people who "hated" EW because they can't pirate their library or things like that, but now there are so many alternatives that can be, technologically speaking, even better (not to mention that non-QL EW libraries are quite a bit behind). I have to say that, while Nick has been a very valuable contributor to the VI industry and I respect him, but EW/QL is not THAT important to the world. It is inevitable to get compared to more recent peers and we can move on if we don't like Play.
 

whiskers

Perpetual student
So the reason you haven’t been hacked yet is because you haven’t released Play Pro? Updating play to pro or adding some extra keyswitch patches will suddenly make Play hackable?

I suppose I’m missing a link there that isn’t clearly evident (not sure how we got to hacking) but I’ll assume some trade secrets are involved.

Yeah, that part of the response to me makes no sense. I'm curious as to what Nick meant by that. I don't see how the development of play pro really has much to do with being or not being cracked (or hacked I suppose as they're calling it these days)
 
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X-Bassist

Senior Member
Yeah, that part of the response to me makes no sense. I'm curious as to what Nick meant by that. I don't see how the development of play pro really has much to do with being or not being cracked (or hacked I suppose as they're calling it these da)
Not to put words in Nicks mouth, he may have a different line of thinking, but my guess is that he was resonding to the many questions they get about “why did East West leave Kontakt” yet, as before, doesn’t want to respond to questions about Pro Play, which in my mind is the next step, as opposed to going back to something like Kontakt (“and here’s why we can’t...”).

Avoiding speaking about Play Pro could be because they began development and found it too expensive or too bug laden to fix adequately and decided to quietly put in “on hold”. Or as some suggested in this thread used the idea to sell libraries and put off new buyers concerns (Play Pro is on it’s way!) yet couldn’t come up with enough financing to get it up and running (it happens). Many companies enjoy touting the best of what they have (or what’s to come) while staying mum about their mistakes. That’s what a PR department is for. ;)

Play does what it was intended to do without crashing, just getting to that point takes a lot of work (and a lot of money- I don’t think NI fee’s come close) so kudos. Just give us those few more options or a few more patches for those exceptional libaries that could really use it, or let us know Pro Play is dead, barely breathing, or about to have it’s first baby. Any one of the above is better then pretending something is on the horizon when it’s not. And if it’s all in the rear view mirror for you that’s fine too, just let us know so we can also move on and make the best of it. Thank you. Cheers.
 

JohnG

Senior Member
I really like Hollywood Choirs because it's so quick to get plausible results. The Wordbuilder works better than the original EWQL Symphonic Choirs because it puts most syllables where the composer intends without a lot of juggling.

Mind you, I used the original on plenty of paying jobs but, for ease of use and greater flexibility, I do like the new one better most of the time. Those others who have both can agree, I think, that they sound pretty different.

I agree also with Nick that legato is overrated, not only for choirs but for sample libraries in general. I don't even like legato most of the time, and particularly for choirs. In choirs where I've sung, if the conductor hears anyone sliding from note to note, he's going to chastise, not congratulate the singer. And 99.9% of the time I detest portamento, unless it's an effect.

If I want super-aggressive staccato maybe Strezov or something else?

I'm fine with PLAY. Have had more problems with Kontakt than PLAY over the years, in aggregate. And this new Native Access drives me nuts.

Sometimes Nick uses a few potty words in a post. Doesn't bother me.

I'm grateful to all of them for what they do -- EW, Spitfire, Spectrasonics, u-he, Tonehammer/8dio/Soundiron, NI, ERA, Steven Slate, Matt Bowdler -- so many people working hard to create sounds to use. I love having them.

[Note: I have received free products from East West]
 

Parsifal666

I don't even own a DAW, I'm just a troll.
I really like Hollywood Choirs because it's so quick to get plausible results. The Wordbuilder works better than the original EWQL Symphonic Choirs because it puts most syllables where the composer intends without a lot of juggling.

Mind you, I used the original on plenty of paying jobs but, for ease of use and greater flexibility, I do like the new one better most of the time. Those others who have both can agree, I think, that they sound pretty different.

I agree also with Nick that legato is overrated, not only for choirs but for sample libraries in general. I don't even like legato most of the time, and particularly for choirs. In choirs where I've sung, if the conductor hears anyone sliding from note to note, he's going to chastise, not congratulate the singer. And 99.9% of the time I detest portamento, unless it's an effect.

If I want super-aggressive staccato maybe Strezov or something else?

I'm fine with PLAY. Have had more problems with Kontakt than PLAY over the years, in aggregate. And this new Native Access drives me nuts.

Sometimes Nick uses a few potty words in a post. Doesn't bother me.

I'm grateful to all of them for what they do -- EW, Spitfire, u-he, T8dio/Soundiron, NI -- so many people working hard to create sounds to use. I love having them.

[Note: I have received free products from East West]

[Note: I have not received free products from East West]

Thank yee-haw somebody spoke up re: legato. To me that's not the selling point of any library, I just don't use it that often to begin with, and a lot of the time the long patches work just fine! And not just in EW btw.

And I also agree about being grateful to all those developers. Samples today can at times be unbelievably inspiring; I remember when I first picked up Iceni I was overwhelmed by all the fantastic samples,...but that goes for the older libraries like the Hollywood series and Stormdrums, EWQLSCP as well.
 

StatKsn

Active Member
While for choirs (outside of "mm-mm-mm" "ee-ee-ee" humming stuff) I don't hear much legatos, legato is still very important for many instruments. You can't produce too many flowing lines without that - you can't produce a realistic e-guitar performance without hammering on/pull-offs - well, you can't even make a decent EDM synth without a gliding legato. :)
 

Ashermusic

Senior Member
This is the most convoluted, egotistical and frankly childishly personal reply I've ever seen from a developer towards a review with rather tame negative feedback. This is the real world, where people don't automatically agree with or support your vision. Resorting to insulting language against a reviewer and making a big deal out of a few things I said that weren't even that harsh, is quite unprofessional and displays the kind of rash behaviour sample developers need to avoid if they intend on keeping their customers happy and their reputation intact.

Standing on a soap box and claiming how incredibly awesome your company is, while spurting offensive comments to the reviewer, is disgusting. I've already maintained that the library has plenty of flaws - no amount of passive aggression will change that - but I also had some good things to say about it, which were clearly not good enough for you considering your attitude.

On a side note, many customers of EW are fans of Nick Phoenix's work on Stormdrum, Ra and the first two Hollywood libraries. It's not a stretch to claim that since Doug's still unexplained and vicious attack on Nick way back when, the quality of EW libraries has continually degraded. That wasn't my fault - it is the fault of those who compromised the relationship and flow that EW had going with Nick and his team.

Honestly, your reply speaks for itself so I have nothing else to say about it. I go by evidence only. I don't know you so I refuse to harbour any resentment towards you and I say these words with a general sense of respect for you as a human being - toughen up and don't let negative reviews get to you. If you're still consumed by the dilemma of negative customer feedback, post all you want. I'll let you have the last say, but it certainly won't stop or resolve any negative customer feedback or unwillingness to part with their money for the product in question.

So let me see: a guy spends countless hours utilizing his passion and vast experience and expertise, and money, puts out a product he believes in, and you find it surprising and reprehensible that he strongly defends it against a harsh and arguably incorrect review?

It is YOU that is not living in the real world, not Nick in my opinion.
 

JohnG

Senior Member
legato is still very important for many instruments. :)

Actually, I think it's mostly important for -- instruments and situations for which it's important! You mention hammer-ons and pull-offs, and I agree -- they have to be good. Just like recorded trills. I agree 100% about electric guitar and could be convinced about synths too.

But not about orchestral instruments, where they are often unnecessary.

About 90% of the time if I actually hear my orchestral players playing with what some developers call "legato," I ask them not to do that again. I don't like hearing transitions most of the time.

Sometimes it can be awesome, unquestionably; we can all think of a solo French Horn / trumpet / flugel etc. line, or maybe some beautiful cello melody and yes, for that, legato is really nice. I really have been enjoying those Spitfire "Performance Legato" scripts on the strings, for example.

But, when it comes to legato samples, the amount of hair-pulling, hours of recording, and editing, and verbiage spilled wildly overweighs their attractiveness, to me at least.
 

Parsifal666

I don't even own a DAW, I'm just a troll.
Actually, I think it's mostly important for -- instruments and situations for which it's important!

But not about orchestral instruments, where they are often unnecessary.

About 90% of the time if I actually hear my orchestral players playing with what some developers call "legato," I ask them not to do that again. I don't like hearing transitions most of the time.

Sometimes it can be awesome, unquestionably; we can all think of a solo French Horn / trumpet / flugel etc. line, or maybe some beautiful cello melody and yes, for that, legato is really nice. I really have been enjoying those Spitfire "Performance Legato" scripts on the strings, for example.

But, when it comes to legato samples, the amount of hair-pulling, hours of recording, and editing, and verbiage spilled wildly overweighs their attractiveness, to me at least.

I must again mention: there are quite a few "plain old" longs patches that can get you there just as nicely as "authentic legato" patches can. Some even moreseo.

I do like getting a nice legato ostinato in the woodwinds now and again. It just doesn't happen to be needed often. If there was even a library called, say, "Legato 2.0" the chances are good I wouldn't need it.

But wait, I just spent 700 US this year on a library I didn't need (Ark 1) so whadda I know?
 

Mike Greene

Senior Member
Moderator
So let me see: a guy spends countless hours utilizing his passion and vast experience and expertise, and money, puts out a product he believes in, and you find it surprising and reprehensible that he strongly defends it against a harsh and arguably incorrect review?

It is YOU that is not living in the real world, not Nick in my opinion.
I like that Nick chimed in and I don't have a problem at all with his post or his language. He's a passionate guy, which probably has a lot to do with why his stuff (both music and EWQL products) is so great, and speaking for myself, if I see a Nick Phoenix post, I know it's going to be worth reading. The more Nick on the forum, the better.

At the same time, Cory is also well within bounds to respond as he did and I have no problem at all with that, either. In fact, I'll bet Nick expected nothing less. Cory may not have the credits Nick has, but he's no bozo and his reviews and postings are very valuable here. So agree with me or not, the official forum position (not just me, but other moderators) is that these guys are both fine and I don't want the thread to devolve into a discussion on etiquette.

There's some real meat in this discussion about Choirs, Play and other topics, so I don't want this to get derailed by side-discussion about who was out of line and who wasn't. So to keep things on topic, please refrain from posts that are about the personalities instead of the subject at hand.
 

zolhof

Senior Member
So the reason you haven’t been hacked yet is because you haven’t released Play Pro? Updating play to pro or adding some extra keyswitch patches will suddenly make Play hackable?

I think he meant the other way around? At least that's how I read his words, and please Nick, correct me if I'm wrong: at this point, EW would only prioritize Play Pro with all its bell$ and whi$tle$ to patch some serious hack or exploit - and then make all libraries require the new version.

Bummer for the user but they are a business after all.
 

whiskers

Perpetual student
I think he meant the other way around? At least that's how I read his words, and please Nick, correct me if I'm wrong: at this point, EW would only prioritize Play Pro with all its bell$ and whi$tle$ to patch some serious hack or exploit - and then make all libraries require the new version.

Bummer for the user but they are a business after all.
Aah ok, that makes a lot more sense if he meant it that way. Unfortunate, but as you say, business.
 

X-Bassist

Senior Member
I think he meant the other way around? At least that's how I read his words, and please Nick, correct me if I'm wrong: at this point, EW would only prioritize Play Pro with all its bell$ and whi$tle$ to patch some serious hack or exploit - and then make all libraries require the new version.

Bummer for the user but they are a business after all.

Saying “we aren’t releasing play pro because we haven’t been hacked yet” is even more out there than what I thought. Play 6 has been released, there is always the ability to stop a hack (and require new libraries update) on any new version of Play, no need to add the bells and whistles. Which we are only talking about because they were touted, by Doug himself, as on it’s way. But as I said, I think they could drop pro like a rock if they added some more keyswitch patches.

Personally I’m glad to hear John is getting a lot of use out of Hollywood Choirs and can recommend it. The recordings and multiple mics sound good, even the updated wordbuilder is great news, since I get along fine with the one in SC.
 
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Quantum Leap

nickphoenix.com
This is the most convoluted, egotistical and frankly childishly personal reply I've ever seen from a developer towards a review with rather tame negative feedback. This is the real world, where people don't automatically agree with or support your vision. Resorting to insulting language against a reviewer and making a big deal out of a few things I said that weren't even that harsh, is quite unprofessional and displays the kind of rash behaviour sample developers need to avoid if they intend on keeping their customers happy and their reputation intact.

Standing on a soap box and claiming how incredibly awesome your company is, while spurting offensive comments to the reviewer, is disgusting. I've already maintained that the library has plenty of flaws - no amount of passive aggression will change that - but I also had some good things to say about it, which were clearly not good enough for you considering your attitude.

On a side note, many customers of EW are fans of Nick Phoenix's work on Stormdrum, Ra and the first two Hollywood libraries. It's not a stretch to claim that since Doug's still unexplained and vicious attack on Nick way back when, the quality of EW libraries has continually degraded. That wasn't my fault - it is the fault of those who compromised the relationship and flow that EW had going with Nick and his team.

Honestly, your reply speaks for itself so I have nothing else to say about it. I go by evidence only. I don't know you so I refuse to harbour any resentment towards you and I say these words with a general sense of respect for you as a human being - toughen up and don't let negative reviews get to you. If you're still consumed by the dilemma of negative customer feedback, post all you want. I'll let you have the last say, but it certainly won't stop or resolve any negative customer feedback or unwillingness to part with their money for the product in question.

News alert. You are not a reviewer. You’re a bad hair model. Products degraded? I don’t know. I don’t agree. You accused EW of buying reviews which is BS. It’s a bad accusation. Kind of as bad as it gets. For all the things I have disagreed with Doug over, I know he doesn’t buy anything. It’s kind of the opposite. And you missed the point and huge upside of Hollywood Choirs. You just wanted to make your video. On the upside, at least you still have hair.
 

Quantum Leap

nickphoenix.com
Saying “we aren’t releasing play pro because we haven’t been hacked yet” is even more out there than what I thought. Play 6 has been released, there is always the ability to stop a hack (and require new libraries update) on any new version of Play, no need to add the bells and whistles. Which we are only talking about because they were touted, by Doug himself, as on it’s way. But as I said, I think they could drop pro like a rock if they added some more keyswitch patches.

Personally I’m glad to hear John is getting a lot of use out of Hollywood Choirs and can recommend it. The recordings and multiple mics sound good, even the updated wordbuilder is great news, since I get along fine with the one in SC.

I guess I was rambling incoherently. I didn’t mean that about Play Pro. I just meant that we went with our own player to avoid NI and to protect our samples. Miraculously the copy protection worked. I really don’t have much to do with the workings at EW but I think there is something coming you might like. And yes, we have plenty of key switches, but just not complete ones because PLAY can’t handle the size of them.
 
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