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Do you have a sub woofer in your monitoring setup?

OP
Pier

Pier

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I swear this wasn't the intention when I started the thread... but since you all seem so proud of your sub setups... :)

Could you give a quick listen to this and tell me how it sounds?

It's straight out from Zebra. No mastering or even normalization so it might sound a bit low.

Do you feel the low end is hyped, just right, or too soft?

Edit:

Something happened when uploading to SoundCloud... so here's the MP3.
 

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babylonwaves

Darth Fader
"It is important to note that the use of delay is not recommended unless absolutely necessary. It provides a far less satisfactory solution than actually positioning and angling speakers correctly!"
this is what I was told: different speaker designs, different delays. a transmission line or ported design delays the sound further than a sealed design. the dimension of the chassis also where the speaker is located in the chassis also play a part. in my case, the position had a great influence, the angle - not so much. but they're right in the sense that distance is the bigger evil. 2m = 5.5ms (vs. the 4ms the sub introduced). it would be great things were the other way around, we could push the subs back into the room to align them with the front speakers. damn physics ;)
 

AudioLoco

Senior Member
Both positions re: sub are valid I think

For music production/mixing no sub really "required", unless the entire room has been designed by a top acoustic engineer (or just luck of finding a problem-free room). More often it introduces more problems then solving them.
With a good set of monitors you know, a decent room, and a quick look at the spectrum analyzer you should be just fine.
Most engineers loved to mix on a pair of NS10, without sub, which extends to...well... no bass. We used to actually look at the cones and learn to recognize the right movement for the right bass extension....

As for music production for media, and especially film/shows. That is another story and having a sub helps to understand what you are going for related to the actual FX, foley, sound design (LFE) and how to interact with them (even though you usually don't have the final SFX while working).
It just gives you more useful info (in a decently treated room).

In the case you are mixing/working towards 5.1, well you need the .1.... But that is a different story as the sub is actually a channel and not just a component that gets separated automatically by whatever system it is played on (crossover). Again, usually the music will not be sent at all to the sub channel so 5.0 could work for some....
 

wst3

Lunatic - it's really that simple
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I'm using a pair of Presonus Sceptre S6s as my primary monitors right now. (Nick will chuckle when I mention that I also use a pair of Urei 809s). For a short time I had the Presonus T8 in the room, and I liked it, but I got really used to having it, and forgot it was there. So when demo time was over I sent it back, thinking (incorrectly) that it hadn't really done anything for me. Now I am really aware that it is missing.

For things I was working on there is very little if any energy below about 40 Hz, and the S6s handle that, but with the sub it just felt more complete - if that makes any sense.

Guitar goes down to about 80 Hz, a four string bass goes down to about 40 Hz (one octave lower). A piano goes one octave further down (I think, this is from memory), and I don't play well enough to use those keys<G>! So my set up is fine for guitars (and most brass, winds, and strings), and possibly in need of a little assistance for bass, tuba, and piano.

Meaning I really need to get off my lazy thing and order a sub-woofer. FWIW I will use one, and I will place it in the center on the front wall - that is all I need it for.
 

GNP

Active Member
More importantly is to have bass traps if you possibly can. Nothing worse than bass frequencies misrepresented by the room, while you have an excellent, expensive sub.
 

dgburns

Leg Ahh toe / Shpeig haw too
I swear this wasn't the intention when I started the thread... but since you all seem so proud of your sub setups... :)

Could you give a quick listen to this and tell me how it sounds?

It's straight out from Zebra. No mastering or even normalization so it might sound a bit low.

Do you feel the low end is hyped, just right, or too soft?

Edit:

Something happened when uploading to SoundCloud... so here's the MP3.
They sound fine. But it does bring up the question of headroom. If you have slamming bass down there eating up all your headroom, you have to be very careful, especially if this range does not translate well to the iPhone users.

just a thought, but for cinematic uses, yeah, great.
 
OP
Pier

Pier

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They sound fine. But it does bring up the question of headroom. If you have slamming bass down there eating up all your headroom, you have to be very careful, especially if this range does not translate well to the iPhone users.

just a thought, but for cinematic uses, yeah, great.
Thanks for checking it out.

Yeah, most of these will not sound great on a phone. They do sound at least acceptable on an iPad though.
 

BassClef

Senior Member
Hobbyist here doing stereo only... mixing in an untreated 12X12X9 foot room... Focal Alpha6 monitors... Elac Sub3010. This sub has built in equalization that you control with a cell phone app. You use your cell phone to listen to the sub at "point blank" range, then again at your listing position. The software then creates a frequency response curve that the sub uses to flatten it's frequency at your listing position. I split my mixing time between this 2.1 speaker setup and my Beyerdynamic DT880Pro headphones using Waves "NX Ocean Way" plugin. That plugin has done more for my mixing than the sub.
 

Instrugramm

All of the samples? Yes please!
I'm a headphone guy at heart and so I should probably mention that I have a vast collection of headphone amps and cans (I won't write down numbers or people will think I'm crazy) including dead flat closed-backs (Ether CX), open-back evergreens (HD560S, HD650, HD600, HD58X, DT880 600 Ohms), neutral-ish rare stuff (Verum One Mk2, Argon T60RP) and some more (Bayerdynamic, Sendy, Sivga etc.). Bass can thump on headphones and they can be of great help but they can't convey impact. Deep bass has a physical dimension that only speakers can transmit to your body as the air of the room is actually compressed.

Some headphones can give you an idea of the thump without the mass (DT177x, Sivga Phoenix or HD6xx on the IFI Signature Zen Can with the 6xx mode enabled) while others can give you an idea of the weight (Ether CX, Verum One mk2) but I have never listened to a headphone (no matter the price, not even the most expensive Audeze or Focal cans) that will tell you both. So apart from the "do I need a sub" dimension, mixing on headphones is possible, it can be awesome but it can't imitate what low end does in the real world when woofers reproduce sound. (Provided your room is treated and room modes have been taken care of by DSP and/or a second sub or more.)
 
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JohnG

Senior Member
If you want to write for professional projects, get a sub, no matter how rudimentary. If you are a hobbyist, then of course do as you please.

It's always nice to have a treated room, but whether or not you do, get a sub. If you can't hear what's going on between 20-50 Hz you can make significant mixing mistakes, especially in media music.
 

Instrugramm

All of the samples? Yes please!
If you want to write for professional projects, get a sub, no matter how rudimentary. If you are a hobbyist, then of course do as you please.

It's always nice to have a treated room, but whether or not you do, get a sub. If you can't hear what's going on between 20-50 Hz you can make significant mixing mistakes, especially in media music.
Absolutely, although maybe not the most rudimentary sub, phase alignment is vital for marrying sub(s) and monitors, so a sub with adjustable phase (not only 0° and 180°) is recommendable imo (if the budget allows it). Apart from that yes, even fairly affordable subs can help tremendously.
 
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Nick Batzdorf

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Absolutely, although maybe not the most rudimentary sub, phase alignment is vital for marrying sub(s) and monitors, so a sub with adjustable phase (not only 0° and 180°) is recommendable imo (if the budget allows it). Apart from that yes, even fairly affordable subs can help tremendously.

My sense is that how the crossover is implemented with your main speakers is the big fish. Whether rumble is in phase isn't unimportant, but it's probably a little lower on the list.

That's just based on having flipped the polarity switch on mine, not an educated opinion.
 

Instrugramm

All of the samples? Yes please!
My sense is that how the crossover is implemented with your main speakers is the big fish. Whether rumble is in phase isn't unimportant, but it's probably a little lower on the list.

That's just based on having flipped the polarity switch on mine, not an educated opinion.
Crossover is important (especially the slopes) but phase is noticeably, even if the speakers/subs are only slightly out of phase you will notice that the bass sounds bloated and you can make out a difference between sub and the speakers. If your sub is well implemented your monitors will sound as though it's them producing the bass.

Just load up an 80hz sine tone (if your crossover is at 80) and adjust the phase, my SVS' allow variable adjustment from 0 to 180 and are set to 75 although the subs are located a mere 20 cm from my monitors' woofers. In home cinema it's not as vital to get it right but if you want to mix it should be a priority and a typical mistake I've seen or rather heard time and time again.

I'll now stop sounding like a smart ass and chime out in order to finally write some more music. :elephant:
 
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Nick Batzdorf

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Crossover is important (especially the slopes) but phase is noticeably, even if the speakers/subs are only slightly out of phase you will notice that the bass sounds bloated and you can make out a difference between sub and the speakers. If your sub is well implemented your monitors will sound as though it's them producing the bass.

Just load up an 80hz sine tone (if your crossover is at 80) and adjust the phase, my SVS' allow variable adjustment from 0 to 180 and are set to 75 although the subs are located a mere 20 cm from my monitors' woofers. In home cinema it's not as vital to get it right but if you want to mix it should be a priority and a typical mistake I've seen or rather heard time and time again.

I'll now stop sounding like a smart ass and chime out in order to finally write some more music. :elephant:

My argument is that the wrong crossover for your system can and will produce that dreaded separate speaker sound.

Blurring probably has as much to do with the room and placement in it as much as electronic phase adjustment to try and compensate for the distances to your ears. That's an educated guess, not an empirical fact.

I have a Blue Sky System One setup, which consists of sealed 6.5" sats and a sub. It's designed as a system and sounds like that, i.e. you *can't* hear separate speakers even if you try.

But using this sub with my big UREI 809As... wrong. It's possible I could rig a separate crossover system that makes the sub work better, but then the best thing about the UREIs is that the bass sounds overwhelmingly right as is - even if it doesn't do much below 40 or 45Hz.

The UREIs have ports, by the way.
 

Markus Kohlprath

Senior Member
This is possibly a dumb sub noob question but where do you place your subs? Under the desk? Does it have to be in the middle? I don't have much space for it but want one as soon as possible. But I really wonder how to implement it real estate wise.
 

JohnG

Senior Member
This is possibly a dumb sub noob question but where do you place your subs? Under the desk? Does it have to be in the middle? I don't have much space for it but want one as soon as possible. But I really wonder how to implement it real estate wise.
It's not at all a dumb question. You will, no doubt, get 10,000 "expert" replies, succeeded by the experts arguing amongst themselves.

There are quite a few tips on Youtube and elsewhere about how to place a sub. It takes a little while to situate it so the sub will help the most. I would start with Youtube and, if you can, try to find one that is talking about a room not too dissimilar to yours (size and shape).

And as another aside, since many will tell you this: it does help to have treated your room.

I'm not dismissing that, but take it with a slight grain of salt -- don't feel that you can't buy a sub if your room isn't dialed in. Besides, sometimes just an irregular-shaped room or normal, around-the-house furniture can reduce some of the worst problems. You don't need to buy oscilloscopes and expensive software to improve your listening substantially.
 
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Markus Kohlprath

Senior Member
It's not at all a dumb question. You will, no doubt, get 10,000 "expert" replies, succeeded by the experts arguing amongst themselves.

There are quite a few tips on Youtube and elsewhere about how to place a sub. It takes a little while to situate it so the sub will help the most. I would start with Youtube and, if you can, try to find one that is talking about a room not too dissimilar to yours (size and shape).

And as another aside, since many will tell you this: it does help to have treated your room.

I'm not dismissing that, but take it with a slight grain of salt -- don't feel that you can't buy a sub if your room isn't dialed in. Besides, sometimes just an irregular-shaped room or normal, around-the-house furniture can reduce some of the worst problems. You don't need to buy oscilloscopes and expensive software to improve your listening substantially.
Thank you John, so again not the one right answer that ends the need of research. Will take a look at YT before getting one. My studio room is fairly treated. I'm aware of that.
But I'm also curious how you guys/girls place it in an average project studio.
 
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