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Discovery Networks (& Netflix) Corners Composers in Music Royalties Battle

Iswhatitis, FWIW, my experience of over 25 years suggests that the numbers you listed in the previous page are off by a factor of 10. Except for Hollywood features and series.
 
To be fair, I know a few composers who made ~$20k per episode of network TV in the US not even ten years ago.

The numbers aren't totally off, just outdated, which is the problem I think iswhatitis is getting at. Numbers have just continued to plummet over the decades.
 
A pricing guide would be a great resource in the business forum.

We could sticky an outline at the top so at least anyone who visits can see at a glance what range their services should be priced at.

People often ask what to charge for certain jobs over on Gearslutz but whenever the users give out the numbers the composer complains it sounds way too high and doesn’t wanna step on their employers toes.
 
AlexRuger said:
To be fair, I know a few composers who made ~$20k per episode of network TV in the US not even ten years ago.

The numbers aren't totally off, just outdated, which is the problem I think iswhatitis is getting at. Numbers have just continued to plummet over the decades.
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Speaking to guys and girls who were writing music for network tv in the late 90’s....man they were the glory years. The money was incredible. The gravy train has been slowly running out of fuel after that peak.

What’s sadder still is that even with advertising where billions is spent annually, the music budgets are still shrinking. The only benefit to ads now is the royalties can be very lucrative (if composers are smart enough to take them).

Still you have companies like Nike emailing composers and songwriters asking to have their music for free. It’d be hilarious if it wasn’t so depressingly greed-fuelled.
 
Iswhatitis said:
What I’ve learned over and over again the hard way is that my rates are not negotiable. If a producer wants to low ball me they can go fuk themselves and I usually tell them to save their money and use someone else’s music libraries after a low ball offer. They want a composer for hire original music score for music library rates. I don’t do music library work, it doesn’t interest me at all.
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Ive had instances where my original work has been in competition with a library piece. I’m always torn by this because I’m a library writer too and my production music work pays my mortgage and then some. If you write for the big names and take library seriously it can be great work on top of custom scoring.

I have turned clients always for low balling me and always will.

But as a PSA for any composers - it’s in a similar vein but on the production music side; A friend of mine runs a large library, and a gigantic beverage brand came to him wanting to license a piece of music for a big ad. My friend quoted a $100,000 fee, to which the client responded “no, I have $10,000.” My friend showed them the door, but a week later the client phoned back with $20,000. The library again politely declined their offer. The client was irritated but told them they would “negotiate.” They offered $70,000, but again the library said their price hasn’t changed from $100k. They lost the client - but a year later the same brand were running another campaign, even bigger than the last. They came back to the library wanting to license a piece of music, and low and behold they had $100,000 for a license fee. They have Been their go to for licensing and putting together bespoke music. Their fees and backend make their composers very comfy.

On the other side of the coin, another composer I know was approached by a brand who offered him a $7,000 buyout for an ad for one of his tracks. He wasn’t quite as experienced but has been in the business for a few years. He took the buyout and a week later saw the ad and it was during the super bowl....he never heard from that client again.

Sometimes, as hard it is, it’s better to say no to the short term. It can pay off in the long term. Your integrity is extremely valuable. Clients can recognise self worth and will value something they pay good money for.

You may not be around those types of figures, but don’t be so quick to give something away or bend to the will of the guy with the check book. And please hold onto your writers share - you never know where it’s going to end up.
 
I just don’t get it. What is fueling this evil race to the bottom? Don’t they know this is going to come back to bite them? Composers need and deserve to be compensated for their contributions and talents.
 
Thundercat said:
I just don’t get it. What is fueling this evil race to the bottom? Don’t they know this is going to come back to bite them? Composers need and deserve to be compensated for their contributions and talents.
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Streaming and over supply means lowering cost. and since its basically this last year where noticed, hey maybe netflix and amazon should be paying more in royalties. (i noticed like 10 yrs ago when i worked on one of the big studios that netflix had more money that most broadcasters combined)

back when they 1st started no one cared about those streaming royalties. since it started with netflix who used to send dvds via mail then there was no royalties. mainly for tech reasons and also we didnt cared.
so netflix used that same argument for streaming. its under HOME ENTERTAINMENT (this is a big big important word in distribution ) so they didnt pay roaylties.

and they didnt pay that much royalties later when bmi and ascap asked. and they didnt pay that much royalties when they opened up shop in europe. and japan. and south america. nope. we didnt see it coming.

fast forward to now and all this braodcasters are struggling to keep up the old ad revenue model plus cable royalties etc becuase of streaming.. and now you can see why these roaylties matter.

and not to mention that we still think streaming shoudlnt pay that much as broascasters. and even in music via spotify. someone said, hey its streaming so it should pay less and everyone just went along with it. suddenly artists are like hey..... wait a minute... but too late.
if service like apple music, youtube and spotify started charging the rates like 15yrs ago and they will go bankrupt in a week.
 
Thundercat said:
I just don’t get it. What is fueling this evil race to the bottom? Don’t they know this is going to come back to bite them? Composers need and deserve to be compensated for their contributions and talents.
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It wouldn’t be a problem if royalties or fees were adjusted but streaming has developed so damn fast and the PRO’s and Publishers are ridiculously complacent. I’ve been worried since day dot when I noticed streaming but my managers and publishers have always told me to chill out...but look at us now.

If you follow any of the big name music houses and libraries on social media, all they ever post is staff vacations, bowling/drinks nights and Xmas parties with a pop star as a guest. These guys don’t seem to see what’s in front of them.

Either the laws adapt to online/home entertainment for royalties, or the fees for scoring/licensed music goes WAY WAY up. But it’s pretty easy to see that royalties are vanishing and fees are plummeting, so who the hell knows where we’ll be in 5 years.
 
Regarding streaming, I think it’s sick that it’s not classed as a broadcast. It very much is a broadcast on demand.

I read a book about music royalties awhile ago and they shared the story of a songwriting team that had a hit sing in 78 countries.

78 countries.

And there were millions and millions of streamings.

The songwriters’ royalties ending up being a few thousand dollars in total, which they had to split.

What these content companies are not respecting is the sheer talent and energy that goes into creating music. And they literally are plundering artists while keeping the lion’s share of the profits.

why?

because they can.

To this day I refuse to sign up for Apple Music streaming because they give the first 3 months free. That’s 3 months of the artists receiving no royalties I’d imagine.

we really need to unite about this issue.

then again it won’t be long before AI does a hefty share of music cues. So there’s a ticking clock here.

mike
 
Thundercat said:
Regarding streaming, I think it’s sick that it’s not classed as a broadcast. It very much is a broadcast on demand.

I read a book about music royalties awhile ago and they shared the story of a songwriting team that had a hit sing in 78 countries.

78 countries.

And there were millions and millions of streamings.

The songwriters’ royalties ending up being a few thousand dollars in total, which they had to split.

What these content companies are not respecting is the sheer talent and energy that goes into creating music. And they literally are plundering artists while keeping the lion’s share of the profits.

why?

because they can.

To this day I refuse to sign up for Apple Music streaming because they give the first 3 months free. That’s 3 months of the artists receiving no royalties I’d imagine.

we really need to unite about this issue.

then again it won’t be long before AI does a hefty share of music cues. So there’s a ticking clock here.

mike
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if you see my previous post, youll see i try to be more realist and objective...

so..

your statement is not wrong... but from a different point view:

supply and demand.

what these companies are seeing is a TON of talented composers and prodcutions.

i saw this a couple of years back in soundcloud. it used to be a lot of crap out there but randomly checking stuff out and heard a lot of great music from random poeple. music i could easily hear from a top DJ in EU. or a top Hip hop prodcuer in the US. and trailer, film and library music thats on par with whats on tv.

everyone has been trying to do john williams and hans zimmer for decades now and the tools are now there. and lessons on youtube. of course there is still crap but there is a lot better music than before.

so companies do respect the music and want the best. but as any business they see an oportunity to save on money.
we are not uber drivers of course but we are on the same boat where there is a lot of competent composers trying to get the gig. and we dont band together due to geographical reason.. trying to get the pie reasons and random moral arguments.

so thats the reality, a glut of composers and a glut in content. if we band together... or at least have the proper info then we could all say and fight the battles correctly so we all get paid better....


anywayss.. i keep repeating myself, the thread got looong.. but as long as a new spitfire library release thread.. but still..
 
Iswhatitis said:
The A-list composers are the only ones who could unite and strike and make a difference, this will never happen as each A-list composer is only in it for himself. These guys are not interested in forming a union or protecting any other composer. Back a long time ago a big time A-list composer stole one of my tracks note for note with the same arrangement and orchestration for an episode of a tv show that ran in the 90s. I still think about suing that a-hole, I didn’t at the time because I was led to believe if I sued a studio my career was over just as it started. Looking back I should have sued that loser.
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damn. That’s some crappy stuff.

As for the union... a few years back seems composers wanted to do the union and it was going to happened to later be struck down by a judge saying freelancers (independent contractor) couldn’t unionize or something along those lines.
 
Prime, high quality television is on the up for the next 10 years and any TV channel that decides to use "ok" or "that will do" music to score their shows wont be around for 10 years anyway.
 
What I dont understand is why are you all talking about a union? If I'm a producer i dont have to hire a composer that is with a union I can pick from dozens of others all over the world that are not.

So why do you think this will help? (This is an honest question)
 
BartonFink said:
Ive had instances where my original work has been in competition with a library piece. I’m always torn by this because I’m a library writer too and my production music work pays my mortgage and then some. If you write for the big names and take library seriously it can be great work on top of custom scoring.

I have turned clients always for low balling me and always will.

But as a PSA for any composers - it’s in a similar vein but on the production music side; A friend of mine runs a large library, and a gigantic beverage brand came to him wanting to license a piece of music for a big ad. My friend quoted a $100,000 fee, to which the client responded “no, I have $10,000.” My friend showed them the door, but a week later the client phoned back with $20,000. The library again politely declined their offer. The client was irritated but told them they would “negotiate.” They offered $70,000, but again the library said their price hasn’t changed from $100k. They lost the client - but a year later the same brand were running another campaign, even bigger than the last. They came back to the library wanting to license a piece of music, and low and behold they had $100,000 for a license fee. They have Been their go to for licensing and putting together bespoke music. Their fees and backend make their composers very comfy.

On the other side of the coin, another composer I know was approached by a brand who offered him a $7,000 buyout for an ad for one of his tracks. He wasn’t quite as experienced but has been in the business for a few years. He took the buyout and a week later saw the ad and it was during the super bowl....he never heard from that client again.

Sometimes, as hard it is, it’s better to say no to the short term. It can pay off in the long term. Your integrity is extremely valuable. Clients can recognise self worth and will value something they pay good money for.

You may not be around those types of figures, but don’t be so quick to give something away or bend to the will of the guy with the check book. And please hold onto your writers share - you never know where it’s going to end up.
Click to expand...


Thanks for sharing those stories, very interesting.


I don't work in music and only follow this stuff from the sidelines. I'm coming from the visual side of creative work and there it's fairly unusual to even see royalties at all and I've entered that line of work when this was already the case for most of us. So all these discussions are slightly surreal when I read about the royalties that some composers manage to get and I think "They get that much????" when some of the stuff that I made is printed on over a million of physical goods and I don't get any royalties for it and never will be in a position to make it happen, because the competition is fierce and there is no willingness on the clients' side to engage in the hassle that is paying royalties longterm (which to be fair as a paperwork averse person I can relate to). In supply vs demand terms you're simply fucked as a creative.

So... keep fighting guys, when this is gone, it's gone for good and you'll likely never get those royalty deals back. I'm rooting for you all!
 
Iswhatitis said:
If a producer theoretically wants to be a member of the PGA and be considered for awards in the USA as well as be in theaters and tv networks/studios in the USA than just as they have to pay the minimums rates to SAG/AFTRA, AFM, IATSE, WGA and DGA they would have to pay minimums to composers too. I’m not saying people cannot get around dealing with unions, but look at how much those above mentioned unions protect their members.
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I did not know this! So what is exactly holding us back to begin our own union?
 
MartinH. said:
Thanks for sharing those stories, very interesting.


I don't work in music and only follow this stuff from the sidelines. I'm coming from the visual side of creative work and there it's fairly unusual to even see royalties at all and I've entered that line of work when this was already the case for most of us. So all these discussions are slightly surreal when I read about the royalties that some composers manage to get and I think "They get that much????" when some of the stuff that I made is printed on over a million of physical goods and I don't get any royalties for it and never will be in a position to make it happen, because the competition is fierce and there is no willingness on the clients' side to engage in the hassle that is paying royalties longterm (which to be fair as a paperwork averse person I can relate to). In supply vs demand terms you're simply fucked as a creative.

So... keep fighting guys, when this is gone, it's gone for good and you'll likely never get those royalty deals back. I'm rooting for you all!
Click to expand...

I came from moving image work and took me a decade to build up a portfolio and move across purely to audio. I personally think designers should definitely get a royalty and as far as I’m aware logo designers can and do if it’s negotiated?

Luckily I’m a UK based composer and work a lot here and rest of Europe. UK establishes royalties for music as a human right by law. So it’s a definite non-negotiable aspect of some of my business. However if it had to be done, I could relinquish a bit for streaming if the composing and licensing fees shot way up. They can’t have it both ways though or they’ll simply lose a gigantic piece of the creative puzzle that makes good entertainment.

Some of the royalties in music are crazy. I know one the composers who wrote in a duo for a big comparison site commercial in the UK. Together they made £9million in backend from those tv/radio campaigns over 4 or 5 years...

My catalogue isn’t even that big but $50-60k per year in backend provides me with a pretty decent passive living while I tackle other areas of the business. It won’t be the same every year and might drop off but that’s the thing the less experienced composers don’t understand - if they’re serious about this, they’d make a passive living off their output which allows them time to constantly push their skills forward and knock on doors. Royalties help you succeed, they take care of you while you work/invest in the next project or chase the next job. They play a part in your decision making and what kind of jobs you want.

These composers doing it part time for small one time fees will find it’ll take them years to break into full time. That’s why I don’t understand composers questioning the value of the royalty system. They wouldn’t think that way when they suddenly get a $10k royalty cheque from a toilet paper commercial they forgot they did last year for very little money.

Just last year a library track of mine was used as main titles for a tv show in Europe. I didn’t even know about it until my PRO emailed me my December statement which was $20k. So now I’m going to Japan for 2 weeks at the end of this month for a break. I fucking love royalties. I’m not special either, I just signed good deals and worked my ass off.
 
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