Did the internet ruin music schools and teachers?

ein fisch

Dreamer
You can literally find everything you want in the web. You can learn theory, notation, orchestration, just whatever you like.

Did that have an impact on music teachers and schools? Did they make more money back when there was no youtube and all the other music tutorial sources?

Also, what is THAT thing what a teacher can give to you that the internet doesnt? I mean; for the social aspect you could search a band or other musicans to have fun with. And to ask questions you can use forums or chatrooms (id say there are some very experienced musicans on vi control)

I decided to make SAE (school of audio engineering) altough some guys told me it is not worth the money and also the paper is useless in the industry. But SAE has TOP equipment that i can use anytime, together with other students. And i just want to give it a try for the diploma, to do something new in my life. Right now im getting the money together for it

But id like to hear what you guys think are advantages, disadvantages etc in self teaching or buying lessons somewhere.

Cheers
And have a blessed day
Fisch
 

MatFluor

Senior Member
The internet has tons of stuff and you can essentially learn everything without meeting another person.

I'm currently studying EIS - apart from it being a different way for music theory, the main advantage is that mentorship/teacher thing. The thing that isn't on the internet -> direct critique and advice from an industry professional, tailored to my personal questions and needs. So - if I had the choice between autodidact stuff and a big music school - I go sel f-learning. If I have the choice between self-learning and 1-on-1 teaching, I go with the teaching - because the personal experience and "care" the person gives is worth more than money. Even the possiblity to work with the best equipment won't give me that - rather, the mentor used shitty equipment too, and he knows how to make that stuff really shine without relying on the shiny $20k MIDAS mixing desk
 

muk

Senior Member
You probably could find all of the necessary information to learn something on the internet. But in my experience it doesn't work. I don't know a single person who learned to play an instrument at an advanced level without taking lessons. Probably you can learn the basics by yourself, but after that you need proper training. I think it is both a question of discipline, and getting individualized feedback and advice. Something the internet can't provide. It's the same for orchestration/theory/musicology/whatever. The internet is a great resource for research if you already have the knowledge, and it is good to learn the basics. But anything more than that, in my experience you need proper tutelage.
 

Quasar

Senior Member
I think this is a terribly interesting question. I would like to learn synthesis rather than mainly use presets, and have just recently been wondering whether Syntorial would do much of anything for me that I can't find for free on the web. (The obvious answer in this case is to try their free demos, which I plan to.)

There are two distinct questions contained within the single question:
1) Is all of the info out there for free that well-presented for-pay tutorials have?
2) Even if it all is out there for free, does enrolling in formal, for pay courses "frame" and organize the learning experience to make the attainment of competency or mastery more likely?

Much of course varies dramatically from individual to individual, as we all learn differently etc. So there probably isn't a single right answer.

I haven't found anything on YouTube that has the organizational depth and step-by-step detail as Alain Mayrand's Orchestrating the Line... But maybe it's there and I just haven't found it.
 

Erik

Senior Member
You probably could find all of the necessary information to learn something on the internet. But in my experience it doesn't work. I don't know a single person who learned to play an instrument at an advanced level without taking lessons. Probably you can learn the basics by yourself, but after that you need proper training. I think it is both a question of discipline, and getting individualized feedback and advice. Something the internet can't provide. It's the same for orchestration/theory/musicology/whatever. The internet is a great resource for research if you already have the knowledge, and it is good to learn the basics. But anything more than that, in my experience you need proper tutelage.
If the start isn't monitored by an experienced teacher it could ruin and slow down success later on. The first steps are so important: with a bad technique most pieces are just unplayable in the end. But OK, if you don't need too much, then it is fine. But if you're eager to raise the bar one should have proper lessons.
 
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dtcomposer

Active Member
I think a personalized theory/composition teacher can be incredibly valuable. But you can even get that online now haha. There is something to be said for being taught by somebody who was taught by Stravinsky (or whoever) and is an expert at orchestration, instrumentation, development, harmony, counterpoint etc. There is a certain level of experience and breadth of knowledge that you might not get from joe blow internet tutor. But there's nothing stopping people from learning just about everything from online sources. I'd say that what you learn in a theory course in say a university setting (having taught the theory cycle for several years) can definitely be learned online at this point. Sometimes it's nice to have the structure and certainty of an expert to grade/guide you though depending on what kind of learner you are.

When I was studying vocal performance I remember vividly how much better I got under my second teacher as opposed to my first. The second one had toured extensively in Europe and just had many more tools to help me unlock my vocal potential. I think the same can be said for composition/theory teachers. Once you have a base level of knowledge/ability I think independent study is much more useful. That's what music professors basically do after they get their degrees anyway.
 

Desire Inspires

To the stars through desire....
I decided to make SAE (school of audio engineering) altough some guys told me it is not worth the money and also the paper is useless in the industry. But SAE has TOP equipment that i can use anytime, together with other students. And i just want to give it a try for the diploma, to do something new in my life. Right now im getting the money together for it
Forget SAE. Use that money and learn how to trade stocks. Get into real estate. Anything but waste money to play with equipment.
 
OP
ein fisch

ein fisch

Dreamer
Forget SAE. Use that money and learn how to trade stocks. Get into real estate. Anything but waste money to play with equipment.
Thanks for your input. Sadly no one could name anything better for my situation and i want to - atleast for this one time in my life - proper education in audio engineering.

Im have good self-discipline and can learn for myself whole nights and days. BUT as others mentioned, im missing structure. There are gaps that need to be filled,which i maybe forgot about. And for all the topics i know already i see it as some repetition. Second thing im missing is the social aspect, having people around me while learning.

I agree with you.. 26k is alot of money for 2 years. But i still didnt hear of anything better to spend my money on. So i will just do what im able to. Using that money to learn things i do not care about seems more like a waste for me. (I know i could just learn about IT network stuff and get better jobs.. but aside that it feels like a waste of life)
 

Olfirf

Active Member
You can literally find everything you want in the web. You can learn theory, notation, orchestration, just whatever you like.

Did that have an impact on music teachers and schools? Did they make more money back when there was no youtube and all the other music tutorial sources?

Also, what is THAT thing what a teacher can give to you that the internet doesnt? I mean; for the social aspect you could search a band or other musicans to have fun with. And to ask questions you can use forums or chatrooms (id say there are some very experienced musicans on vi control)

I decided to make SAE (school of audio engineering) altough some guys told me it is not worth the money and also the paper is useless in the industry. But SAE has TOP equipment that i can use anytime, together with other students. And i just want to give it a try for the diploma, to do something new in my life. Right now im getting the money together for it

But id like to hear what you guys think are advantages, disadvantages etc in self teaching or buying lessons somewhere.

Cheers
And have a blessed day
Fisch
Self teaching is fine, as soon as you have a basis to decide what the good stuff and what the bad stuff is! That is the problem with the internet. It is also way more difficult to motivate yourself to do the learning without a structure provided by an experienced teacher.
I would not recommend commercial programs like SAE. There goal is to earn money regardless of how the chances of their students are to actually earn money later. That is why they will admit everyone to their program regardless of talent and chances. They also have way more experience with the technical aspect and the courses for composition they offer are highly questionable. Since you seem to be German: education is free in your country! You will have to pass a test of course for studying composition, but that will also be a good indicator wether you are up for the challenge! In case you are not ready for that, I would rather recommend to take private lesson with teachers. You have to find them, of course, but they will cost you a lot less than SAE, because they can lead you in your self study (the right books, some homework, etc). After a few lessons you will quickly see, if it works. If it does not work out, change the teacher ...
Depending on your current abilities, they can prepare you for a test in a music conservatory in 1-2 years. Then you won't have to pay for your education any more. For the technical aspects private courses like SAE might be ok, but it is way overpriced for what you can learn. Try to get an intern ship and learn by doing stuff (recording, mixing etc). No expensive equipment necessary to do the learning.
 

dzilizzi

I just hang around pretending I know something
Take it from someone who has paid a lot of money to trade schools for a useless piece of paper. $26K is too much for something that you would better learn as an assistant, unless it gives you a bachelors degree. You will come out not knowing much more than you could learn online, with no gear to practice on, and find the industry has changed from what they taught you and you know almost nothing. Plus, unless they actually get you a job in the industry? Yeah, good luck.

I have been taking classes in studio production at the local community college. They don't have a lot of fancy equipment (cheese-grater Macs with ProTools 9) My instructor works in the industry except the one night a week he teaches. But he teaches the same stuff you would learn at a place like SAE. And? I hear the same stuff he teaches on Groove3, PureMix, and other online tutorial places. The good part is he is there to ask questions. However, there are also great forums like this one where people are very happy to answer your questions if you are willing to learn.

You'd be better off spending the money on equipment and a subscription to a few of these great learning sites. PureMix has a bunch of free classes. And they provide stems on a number of their paid classes so you can follow along on your computer.

As to the online vs in person training? If you aren't self-motivated, you might want a live teacher, as they will make you work. And you have to show up at a set time and day for a set amount of hours.
 

JJP

I put dots and lines on paper.
You can find all the information you need to perform surgery on the internet too, but I'm still not going to let you remove my appendix. o_O

One of the great problems of the internet is that it causes may people to mistake information for education. @robgb 's library analogy is spot on.

When selecting a place for you education, DO NOT base your decision on which school has the latest gear. That tells you nothing about the quality of instruction. What you need at a beginning level is a good foundation in basic principles of sound and engineering. Those principles are the same regardless of the modernity of the equipment.

In fact, you can often get a more solid education by starting out with basic materials than with complex, fancy things. That's because basic materials force you to understand the concepts which make them function. Mastery of those concepts then makes it easy for you to move up to more complicated settings. (The same is true for sample libraries.)
 

NYC Composer

Senior Member
I took piano, violin and a few guitar lessons. I played violin and viola in my high school orchestra, piano in my high school jazz band, sang in my high school chorus, played guitar and bass in my college big band. One thing I think is missing in a lot of self taught music is the opportunity to play charts with a bunch of other people. Computers are great, but a buncha musicians are even greater.
 

Desire Inspires

To the stars through desire....
Thanks for your input. Sadly no one could name anything better for my situation and i want to - atleast for this one time in my life - proper education in audio engineering.

Im have good self-discipline and can learn for myself whole nights and days. BUT as others mentioned, im missing structure. There are gaps that need to be filled,which i maybe forgot about. And for all the topics i know already i see it as some repetition. Second thing im missing is the social aspect, having people around me while learning.

I agree with you.. 26k is alot of money for 2 years. But i still didnt hear of anything better to spend my money on. So i will just do what im able to. Using that money to learn things i do not care about seems more like a waste for me. (I know i could just learn about IT network stuff and get better jobs.. but aside that it feels like a waste of life)
So did you start your schooling yet?
 

Parsifal666

I don't even own a DAW, I'm just a troll.
I was self-taught...but that's why it took me longer to progress. I had to do everything the hard way, and that approach fails hard when it does fail.

It's kind of like high school algebra, where the teacher isn't asking to see your actual formulations because he or she is a pain in zee rectum, but because it's the best way for you to learn. The mechanics of composition, orchestration, arranging...it's probably best to have at least a guide/copy editor, or see if you can get something helpful from sharing your music on forums like this.

What I mean is, your feedback in regard to your compositions, if hermetically sealed, is going to be necessarily inadequate.

Just my opinion, and I'm sure I've been wrong on this point through many examples over the centuries. This is just what happened to me. Once I got together with an experienced producer I started actively fixing my bad habits and took a huge leap forward in my writing.