Developers - Please Help Settle This Debate - Drama spinoff

Lcas

New Member
That's rough.
I am doing a mock up (for free) for someone who doesn't own any VI's and doesn't know anything about it but made a wonderful piece for a small indie game.
I am almost finished, but now I worry if the composer can even use it.
Maybe it would be legal again if I'd get co-composer credits?
Ignore EULA like everyone else and sleep soundly in the knowledge that if this project is successful enough for someone to investigate the music of it, not to enjoy it but to play hall monitor, then prove that their EULA is violated, THEN act on it...

All that's going to happen is you will be receiving free publicity for you, your friend, and the project. Nobody would be taking their side, what a PR blunder it would be.

Also we'd have proof that nothing is real and we're living in a simulation because it simply ain't happening
 
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Lcas

New Member
I hope that was in jest, because VI-Control is definitely not the appropriate forum in which promote ignoring EULAs.



A situation like yours could be a technical violation of some EULAs, but there is a status quo working on your side of which developers are generally aware. You're not synthestrating a solo instrument -- you're actually building a multi-instrument composition on a for-hire basis. If the finished product is a combination of instruments and not just one exposed library, I don't think many developers are going to care, but you still need to get clarification from them if their EULA is not so clear.

Either way, you'll likely never find yourself in court. If you did, you and your friend could easily exploit a loophole by drawing up some bogus receipts showing that you owned the composition at the time you mocked it up. But that's not an excuse to ignore your professional responsibility to honor the EULAs by checking with the developers. Before I use any library on a client's project, I check with the developer to ask if they require the client to buy a licensed copy of the library. So far, developers have simply granted me permission.
Not in jest at all, I'm having fun at the expense of EULA complete lack of ability to do anything for anybody but the people getting paid to fruitlessly write them.

The whole business, from all sides, functions on an integrity basis. To go after the small portion of people still abiding by the honor system, to shove your nose that far into your lifebloods business?

Laughable
 

Polkasound

Senior Member
The whole business, from all sides, functions on an integrity basis.
That's how it is with copyrights in general. A EULA can't physically stop someone from violating a library, obviously, but that's not its purpose. A EULA has two purposes:

1. To deter a library's abuse.
2. To be used against a library abuser in court.

I'm having fun at the expense of EULA complete lack of ability to do anything for anybody
EULAs mean nothing to people who don't care about intellectual property rights, but you won't find many people like that here. The members of VI-Control are a tight-knit yet very welcoming bunch of people who support each other as well as the developers who create the libraries they use. I've been on the internet for 25 years, and what has made this forum the best I've ever belonged to is the professionalism of the community.

All opinions are welcome here, but advising someone to ignore EULAs or blindly disrespect developers in any other way is not congruent with the integrity of this forum.
 
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Lcas

New Member
That's how it is with copyrights in general. A EULA can't physically stop someone from violating a library, obviously, but that's not its purpose. A EULA has two purposes:

1. To deter a library's abuse.
2. To be used against a library abuser in court.



EULAs mean nothing to people who don't care about intellectual property rights, but you won't find many people like that here. The members of VI-Control are a tight-knit yet very welcoming bunch of people who support each other as well as the developers who create the libraries they use. I've been on the internet for 25 years, and what has made this forum the best I've ever belonged to is the professionalism of the community.

All opinions are welcome here, but advising someone to ignore EULAs or blindly disrespect developers in any other way is not congruent with the integrity of this forum.
EULA can have whatever intentions and be as direct or confusing as someone wants it. They still have zero basis in reality.

There's never court, never a peep. It's a pointless bluff made at people already in agreement that stealing is bad.

You can call what I'm saying unprofessional and disrespecting ip or the community all you want. If you can't even stop actual stealing, you definitely can't stop paying customers doing what they want to do, and obviously should be able to do. And it definitely isn't happening via spooky words nobody even reads.

It gets zero respect because it means nothing. This whole discussion is about curiosity and theory, not real consequences and action
 
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Lcas

New Member
exactly!...heck, we do even post tons of audio snippets over this forum to help others judge whether or not they need to buy the library!....

BEHOLD THE NEW VI-C MOTTO:
"Criminals helping Criminals"
STOP RIGHT THERE CRIMINAL SCUM! Pay the court a fine or serve your sentence, Your stolen samples are now forfeit.
 

Polkasound

Senior Member
...spooky words nobody even reads.
It gets zero respect....
I read and respect EULAs. And on VI-Control, I am the rule, not the exception.


If you can't even stop actual stealing, you definitely can't stop paying customers doing what they want to do, and obviously should be able to do.
Are you saying that licenses are pointless because they can't physically prevent stealing? Of course they can't do that. No license can. They're just documents. EULAs convey the wishes of the developer. Some people will not care and do what they want, but others, like the kind you find on VI-Control, will respect those wishes and stay within the confines of the EULA.

Developers do what they can to protect their property. Obviously they can't dispatch security guards to stand by your computer 24/7 to monitor what you do with their library after they sell it to you. As with all digital goods like software, music, videos and photos, its completely up to you to police yourself. How well you do that says a lot about your integrity.
 
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Lcas

New Member
I read and respect EULAs. And on VI-Control, I am the rule, not the exception.




Are you saying that licenses are pointless because they can't physically prevent stealing? Of course they can't do that. No license can. They're just documents. EULAs convey the wishes of the developer. Some people will not care and do what they want, but others, like the kind you find on VI-Control, will respect those wishes and stay within the confines of the EULA.

Developers do what they can to protect their property. Obviously they can't dispatch security guards to stand by your computer 24/7 to monitor what you do with their library after they sell it to you. As with all digital goods like software, music, videos and photos, its completely up to you to police yourself. How well you do that says a lot about your integrity.
We agree, I know this because you're repeating what I said: it's integrity based because they do nothing.

We differ in our approach to non-issues. I will tell anybody who asks to act as usual and ignore them because nobody even cares about stopping them. Same way nobody can stop you reading every EULA you get your hands on and zealously living by their wishes. Give me a break dude, you can't possibly be that bad.
 

Polkasound

Senior Member
We agree, I know this because you're repeating what I said: it's integrity based because they do nothing.
We agree half-way. All licenses rely on one's integrity, but they also actually do something. People who have the integrity to respect a developer's copyright will refer to the developer's EULA whenever they have any questions. If the EULA isn't clear, then out of respect for the developer, they'll contact the developer for clarification.

Same way nobody can stop you reading every EULA you get your hands on and zealously living by their wishes.
A EULA is a contract. A VI library is copyrighted property. I honestly don't understand why respecting contracts and copyrights comes across as zealous to you.
 
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Lcas

New Member
We agree half-way. All licenses rely on one's integrity, but they also actually do something. People who have the integrity to respect a developer's copyright will refer to the developer's EULA whenever they have any questions. If the EULA isn't clear, then out of respect for the developer, they'll contact the developer for clarification.



A EULA is a contract. A VI library is copyrighted property. I honestly don't understand why respecting contracts and copyrights comes across as zealous to you.
Like I said, nobody stopping you and the other Morlocs reading EULA all day in your subterranean caverns, pretending it means something and never deviating from it.

But you can stop pretending that actual humans do this, and appealing to the mods that pointing out the obvious should be silenced for fear of unprofessional heresy
 

Polkasound

Senior Member
But you can stop pretending that actual humans do this
Not everyone does, obviously. But stick around VI-Control long enough, and you'll come to understand that this community is comprised of people of integrity who read and respect EULAs.

and appealing to the mods that pointing out the obvious should be silenced for fear of unprofessional heresy
I'm not quite sure what you mean by that, but since you're relatively new to VI-Control, I will advise you that nothing will get you banned faster than promoting the unauthorized use or distribution of a VI library.

You're 100% entitled to your opinion of EULAs and how you think people treat them, but coming to VI-Control and advising members to piss on developers' EULAs is like walking into an American Legion Post and advising people to piss on the flag. The vast majority of the members here adhere to a code of ethics and professional courtesy. That's what makes this forum so unique, and it's the #1 thing I love about it.

As a member of VI-Control for over 3 1/3 years, I stand firmly by this statement: The members of this forum, overall, possess far more professionalism, honesty, and integrity than you give them credit for. Maybe when your post count is closer to 300 than 30, you'll come to that realization. (And I don't mean that disrespectfully. I'm just expressing that you can't get to know people until you've spent time getting to know them.)
 
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Lcas

New Member
Not everyone does, obviously. But stick around VI-Control long enough, and you'll come to understand that this community is comprised of people of integrity who read and respect EULAs.



I'm not quite sure what you mean by that, but since you're relatively new to VI-Control, I will advise you that nothing will get you banned faster than promoting the unauthorized use or distribution of a VI library.

You're 100% entitled to your opinion of EULAs and how you think people treat them, but coming to VI-Control and advising members to piss on developers' EULAs is like walking into an American Legion Post and advising people to piss on the flag. The vast majority of the members here adhere to a code of ethics and professional courtesy. That's what makes this forum so unique, and it's the #1 thing I love about it.

As a member of VI-Control for over 3 1/3 years, I stand firmly by this statement: The members of this forum, overall, possess far more professionalism, honesty, and integrity than you give them credit for. Maybe when your post count is closer to 300 than 30, you'll come to that realization. (And I don't mean that disrespectfully. I'm just expressing that you can't get to know people until you've spent time getting to know them.)
Again with this sad old loser stuff

"I've been on the internet for 25 years"

"Get your post count up to 300"

"pwetty pwease mods ban him"

It's OK to disagree without being such a dork about it.

The funniest part is you keep assuming I'm telling people to "piss" on developers. Your disagreement is about the devotion to EULA and the assumption that it's normal. Nobody cares for all the reasons you've read and experienced
 

Polkasound

Senior Member
The funniest part is you keep assuming I'm telling people to "piss" on developers.
You directly advised a member to ignore a EULA. How is telling people to ignore licensing agreements not disrespectful to developers?

"pwetty pwease mods ban him"
I have not reported a single one of your posts. I also chose not to be a moderator here, but if I were, I still wouldn't have banned you. But I would have issued you a warning for the post advising a member to disregard a developer's licensing agreement. Such advice may be the status quo on other sites, but it's not congruent with the integrity of this forum.

It's OK to disagree without being such a dork about it.
I do my best to remain diplomatic and respectful while debating issues. I'm sorry if you feel I have not maintained that standard.
 
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Lcas

New Member
You directly advised a member to ignore a EULA. How is telling people to ignore licensing agreements not disrespectful to developers?







I have not reported a single one of your posts. I also chose not to be a moderator here, but if I were, I still wouldn't have banned you. But I would have issued you a warning for the post advising a member to disregard a developer's licensing agreement. Such advice may be the status quo on other sites, but it's not congruent with the integrity of this forum.







I do my best to remain diplomatic and respectful while debating issues. I'm sorry if you feel I have not maintained that standard.
You told me to be quiet because I don't have enough posts and said I should be banned for stating the obvious. Pathetic

A EULA is all about copyright, and musicians tend to care deeply about copyright.

You will find if you search through the threads on this site that many forum members are concerned about doing things by the book. Even when they know that there will be no practical repercussion if they decide to break the rules. Just as a musician wants their work respected so do the creators of virtual instruments and plugins, and most people here seem to like to treat people how they wish to be treated themselves (at least publicly).
The disconnect seems like this:

People know what's right, it varies but not enough for anyone to care.

The people who do care can't do anything about it

I say non issue, ignore it and act as usual.

Polka says he reads every EULA and follows them to the letter. I don't have enough posts, unprofessional, pissing, quiet or banned

Polka represents the absolute definition of impotent and ridiculous EULA
 

Polkasound

Senior Member
You told me to be quiet because I don't have enough posts and said I should be banned for stating the obvious. Pathetic
That's not what I said. I didn't say you should be banned. (In fact, I said if I were a moderator, I would not have banned you.) I said that if you promote the unauthorized use or distribution of VI libraries, you run the risk of being banned. And that's regardless if you have 3 posts or 3,000. Advising members to ignore EULAs promotes the unauthorized use of VI libraries. I'm sorry you find that to be pathetic, but I can't help you with that. Perhaps after you've spent more time engaging with members here, you'll realize that the level of mutual respect and professionalism on this forum is of a caliber you're unaware even exists.


People know what's right, it varies but not enough for anyone to care.
Some people won't care, but you'll find a lot of people here who do.


Polka says he reads every EULA and follows them to the letter.
I, like so many members here, simply do the best I can. What reason do I have not to?


Polka says... I don't have enough posts, unprofessional, pissing, quiet or banned
Instead of glossing over my points and picking out key words to reiterate out of context, I'd appreciate it if you directly quoted and addressed my specific points, like this one: How is advising members of VI-Control to ignore licensing agreements not disrespectful to developers?


Polka represents the absolute definition of impotent and ridiculous EULA
You're 100% entitled to your opinion of EULAs, but given what EULAs represent to people of integrity, saying that I "represent" the definition of a EULA is quite a compliment. I'm not perfect by any means, but I do my best to honor copyrights and license agreements. It must be those darn values my parents instilled in me that are getting in the way.
 
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Lcas

New Member
That's not what I said. I didn't say you should be banned. (In fact, I said if I were a moderator, I would not have banned you.) I said that if you promote the unauthorized use or distribution of VI libraries, you run the risk of being banned. And that's regardless if you have 3 posts or 3,000. Advising members to ignore EULAs promotes the unauthorized use of VI libraries. I'm sorry you find that to be pathetic, but I can't help you with that. Perhaps after you've spent more time engaging with members here, you'll realize that the level of mutual respect and professionalism on this forum is of a caliber you're unaware even exists.




Some people won't care, but you'll find a lot of people here who do.




I, like so many members here, simply do the best I can. What reason do I have not to?




Instead of glossing over my points and picking out key words to reiterate out of context, I'd appreciate it if you directly quoted and addressed my specific points, like this one: How is advising members of VI-Control to ignore licensing agreements not disrespectful to developers?




You're 100% entitled to your opinion of EULAs, but given what EULAs represent to people of integrity, saying that I "represent" the definition of a EULA is quite a compliment. I'm not perfect by any means, but I do my best to honor copyrights and license agreements. It must be those darn values my parents instilled in me that are getting in the way.
You're trying to say something without saying it regarding me being quiet or being banned. Then talking about integrity. Holding your posts count and time on the internet up like it should matter more, and "just letting me know" that what I am doing is the quickest way to getting banned. You can stop playing like it isn't really transparent what you're about with that.

Then you're invoking professionalism here and then piss right after, you gotta pick one or the other.

I figured that didn't need further explanation but I guess it's better than being accused of taking you out of context
 

Polkasound

Senior Member
Hypothetically, I can have a client who has very low knowledge about composition (in which I will create a composition or whatever midi files) or a client who are very deep knowledge about composition, who gives feedback/review, some parts of composition or initial midi files to render the sound, so he/she can concentrates on other parts that he/she very strong at. is it forbidden to do this?.... I don't think so, If it is forbidden, the EULA or whatever contractual agreement will also say about what types of clients you can take. I never see this kind of EULA.
I couldn't completely follow your question, but EULAs can get kind of gray depending on, for example, if only MIDI files are being exchanged, if rendered audio is being exchanged, who owns the composition, etc. EULAs are written very broadly to deter every known form of abuse, but the primary goal is to deter widespread abuse; it's not to inhibit the individual music creator.

An analogy is speed limits. The speed limit says absolutely nobody can drive over 70MPH, but it's intended purpose is to prevent people from driving 80MPH. Most every cop has no problem with people driving 72. Likewise, most developer will probably be OK with your scenarios above. But to be safe, always check with the developers if you're unsure. They'll be happy to clarify their EULAs for you.


You're trying to say something without saying it
Instead of acknowledging specific questions and points, you write material in between the lines and then form conclusions based on what you've written. If there's one thing I've learned in my 25 years of being on the internet, it is utterly pointless to debate with anyone who does that. For the benefit of the forum, I'm simply ending this debate between us.
 
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Lcas

New Member
Such a dumb trap to fall into. Join a place because I can't find an answer from browsing.

Never post because who cares.

Then see a post or thread and feel compelled to say something to the effect of "wtf is wrong with you this doesn't matter"

Which probably gets a reaction. Then I find MYSELF actually caring about the opinion I've thrown out there. It's kinda fun in the moment but I always feel like "what am I even doing here let it go, don't be mean"

Such a waste of time