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Daniel james live on twitch now with an important topic!

Dramazone, here we go. :2thumbs:

For a "modern music composer"? No. All you need to know to be one of those is there are major and minor chords and that you can arrange you composition like it was a rock song without nearly anyone even batting an eye.

Once you start to listen to guys like Herrmann, Goldsmith, Williams and such, you start to realize how fricking utterly embarrassing your compositions are in the larger context.

But how many people give a damn these days? Not even composers, so why the average movie goers or gamers would. Every time I read youtube comments under some teaser with trailerized Williams music or Mission Impossible Fallout soundtrack video about how great that piece was, I despair.

I don't know what exactly "music theory" means. But one thing is certain. If you want to be as good as possible, you need to study music. And not just some "music theory", but all those things related to composing pieces that go into films and games and whatnot.

You need to know which various chords to use to make your music more stable or more transitional at a specific moment and some more complicated chords to make your music more colourful, not just learn some popular chord progressions. You need to know how to orchestrate, develop your piece through orchestration, how to keep colors fresh, not just that you need a low pounding synth and some strings + brass. You need to start to practise composing in a sonata form and a free-form manner, to be able to make meaningful long compositions and very fluid, agile, flowing yet meaningful compositions. You need to study the works of masters to learn their magic. So you don't need to study "music theory" per se, but you need to study.

I don't think that's something surprising. Scientists read science articles and make experiments, philosophers read books and think, composers should study compositions, transcribe them, etc.

What I mean when saying you need to study those things?
Here, a simple idea incredibly orchestrated and developed:


Here, the vivid and elaborate development yet so seamless:


Here, the smoothness, over 8 minutes long action track that supports the picture yet flows perfectly to create one cohesive symphonic piece:


Now compare those things with guys who compose for Rambo and Star Trek these days... It's sad. Horner maybe stole half of those ideas from Prokofiev, yet he was still able to compose those amazing flowing pieces themselves.


And I think specifically you @Daniel James are a really really talented guy. And I must say, my personal wish is you start to delve deeper into the golden era composing and start shift things a bit. Since I believe you have the talent and potential to bring back these more intricate, subtle, rich and interesting sensibilities the modern music era has lost, even if in the new modern sound or whatever (that's actually what I'm waiting for, I know muted brass or woodwinds are not trendy anymore, and I'm not saying modern hybrid music does not sound cool, but it lacks the skilfulness and level of compositions those old-school masters had and I'm still waiting to hear a modern sounding score that will flow like Horner's Star Trek).

My personal problem is, I have a very rigid, structured thinking. It takes me a lot of effort to make something very fluid, it's a rather exhausting mental exercise to me. But I've noticed, you are good at that by nature. Some passages of your music are so nicely fluent yet comprehensible. So it's just me, but I wish I could hear more Goldsmith-esque and Herrmann-esque pieces from you.
And since you have quite a relatively big following of people who are into modern orchestral music, and you actually are in the business, it could start make them think about their compositions or music they are listening to more deeply.


At least I hope and think it's a trend that has to come back anyway. Where do you want to go from the current state? To even bigger sound-designy minimalism?
The problem is, when directors and producers don't have problems with having something like MI Fallout music in their films and when expectations for music are so low these days, with all that pop and rap music and whatnot, plus where do you want to learn to compose like Horner?.. It's just... the situation is not easy, the bar is low, maybe even the demand is not there except for some nerds like some of us here, but... Where do you want to go from the current state? When, at least in your conscience you know, there's someone like John Williams. Maybe I'm an idealist, but I have this old-school notion of when knowing what can be done, I can't settle for less. Hence I study music.

This may run over to off-topic, but I used to listen to a lot of rock and metal and such, but once I started listening to those golden era hollywood maniacs and their ilk, I can't get excited for new Tool or Immortal or Dimmu Borgir or whatever as much as I'd want to because I know it will be 4x riff A, 4x riff B, repeat, solo, verse, chorus, the end. I've noticed people have nice musical ideas, but they can't compose. They are songwriters and not composers, or how to put it, I think you understand me. I'm now used to these wealthy developments and modulations and what not and I'm listening to the new Abbath songs and thinking "this could have been way more interesting and lead to somewhere or something". Anyone can grab a guitar and repeat some riff 4 times, then add some another riff and repeat it 4 times and here you go, a new song. Then you go listen to some piano only piece from Mozart or an organ only piece by Bach and you realize you can do so much more with your ideas even when they are simple and using just one instrument. I think all musicians should start to study more, not just us who try to replicate an orchestra with samples.


So, yeah, that's like my opinion on this topic. :grin: Cheers!
 
Some great scores referenced above Consona!
However, I disagree with you.

I think everyone has a role to play in great music, from those who experiment at the edges of music theory, to those that experiment at the edges of sound design.

There are only so many hours in a day, and it’s quite right that some composers will work at a higher level, manipulating phrases and samples produced by others. Some might also simply have the qualification of having a good ear, and play a role by remixing tracks. Not everyone involved in creating great music needs to delve into music theory, and in fact it could get in the way at times.

Let’s make composing less of a solitary activity, and more a collaborative one.
 
Dramazone, here we go. :2thumbs:

For a "modern music composer"? No. All you need to know to be one of those is there are major and minor chords and that you can arrange you composition like it was a rock song without nearly anyone even batting an eye.

Once you start to listen to guys like Herrmann, Goldsmith, Williams and such, you start to realize how fricking utterly embarrassing your compositions are in the larger context.

But how many people give a damn these days? Not even composers, so why the average movie goers or gamers would. Every time I read youtube comments under some teaser with trailerized Williams music or Mission Impossible Fallout soundtrack video about how great that piece was, I despair.

I don't know what exactly "music theory" means. But one thing is certain. If you want to be as good as possible, you need to study music. And not just some "music theory", but all those things related to composing pieces that go into films and games and whatnot.

You need to know which various chords to use to make your music more stable or more transitional at a specific moment and some more complicated chords to make your music more colourful, not just learn some popular chord progressions. You need to know how to orchestrate, develop your piece through orchestration, how to keep colors fresh, not just that you need a low pounding synth and some strings + brass. You need to start to practise composing in a sonata form and a free-form manner, to be able to make meaningful long compositions and very fluid, agile, flowing yet meaningful compositions. You need to study the works of masters to learn their magic. So you don't need to study "music theory" per se, but you need to study.

I don't think that's something surprising. Scientists read science articles and make experiments, philosophers read books and think, composers should study compositions, transcribe them, etc.

What I mean when saying you need to study those things?
Here, a simple idea incredibly orchestrated and developed:


Here, the vivid and elaborate development yet so seamless:


Here, the smoothness, over 8 minutes long action track that supports the picture yet flows perfectly to create one cohesive symphonic piece:


Now compare those things with guys who compose for Rambo and Star Trek these days... It's sad. Horner maybe stole half of those ideas from Prokofiev, yet he was still able to compose those amazing flowing pieces themselves.


And I think specifically you @Daniel James are a really really talented guy. And I must say, my personal wish is you start to delve deeper into the golden era composing and start shift things a bit. Since I believe you have the talent and potential to bring back these more intricate, subtle, rich and interesting sensibilities the modern music era has lost, even if in the new modern sound or whatever (that's actually what I'm waiting for, I know muted brass or woodwinds are not trendy anymore, and I'm not saying modern hybrid music does not sound cool, but it lacks the skilfulness and level of compositions those old-school masters had and I'm still waiting to hear a modern sounding score that will flow like Horner's Star Trek).

My personal problem is, I have a very rigid, structured thinking. It takes me a lot of effort to make something very fluid, it's a rather exhausting mental exercise to me. But I've noticed, you are good at that by nature. Some passages of your music are so nicely fluent yet comprehensible. So it's just me, but I wish I could hear more Goldsmith-esque and Herrmann-esque pieces from you.
And since you have quite a relatively big following of people who are into modern orchestral music, and you actually are in the business, it could start make them think about their compositions or music they are listening to more deeply.


At least I hope and think it's a trend that has to come back anyway. Where do you want to go from the current state? To even bigger sound-designy minimalism?
The problem is, when directors and producers don't have problems with having something like MI Fallout music in their films and when expectations for music are so low these days, with all that pop and rap music and whatnot, plus where do you want to learn to compose like Horner?.. It's just... the situation is not easy, the bar is low, maybe even the demand is not there except for some nerds like some of us here, but... Where do you want to go from the current state? When, at least in your conscience you know, there's someone like John Williams. Maybe I'm an idealist, but I have this old-school notion of when knowing what can be done, I can't settle for less. Hence I study music.

This may run over to off-topic, but I used to listen to a lot of rock and metal and such, but once I started listening to those golden era hollywood maniacs and their ilk, I can't get excited for new Tool or Immortal or Dimmu Borgir or whatever as much as I'd want to because I know it will be 4x riff A, 4x riff B, repeat, solo, verse, chorus, the end. I've noticed people have nice musical ideas, but they can't compose. They are songwriters and not composers, or how to put it, I think you understand me. I'm now used to these wealthy developments and modulations and what not and I'm listening to the new Abbath songs and thinking "this could have been way more interesting and lead to somewhere or something". Anyone can grab a guitar and repeat some riff 4 times, then add some another riff and repeat it 4 times and here you go, a new song. Then you go listen to some piano only piece from Mozart or an organ only piece by Bach and you realize you can do so much more with your ideas even when they are simple and using just one instrument. I think all musicians should start to study more, not just us who try to replicate an orchestra with samples.


So, yeah, that's like my opinion on this topic. :grin: Cheers!

Lovely and well put post! Again I wish you would have called in with it!! For the record I actively study music theory, I see the value in it absolutely. My personal task is to be better today than I was yesterday. The topic of the show was if it was essential, and I did clarify in the show it was a question more aimed at the accessibility of the industry given modern technology filling the ignorance gap making it easier for newer people to get involved :)

Back before sample libraries you HAD to know your shit pretty much back to front inside out in order to compete. In the Information Age you can reference anything you need to know in a practical instance, so my inference was that it’s no longer essential to get going. I wasn’t passing a judgement on it at all and everyone has their own journey :)

Thanks for the detailed response!

-DJ
 
In a young age you think you know what 'modern' music is about. But this changes every 10 years or so. So all you learn now to be modern is dated in a couple of years. Younger guys will come and tell you how old fashioned your DAWs and drums and arrangements and sound designs are. But if they want to work with live musicians all this now called 'dated' theoretical knowledge is needed. So be flexible. Learn everything.
 
is music theory essential for the modern music composer?
That depends on what kind of music that modern composer want to make. Some of the popular film music put there can be written without much knowledge about music theory - or harmony, but the more a composer learns, the larger palette of 'colours' will be available. The potential caveat: Many of those who have studied how others do things end up with either sounding like those they have studied - or as someone who want to sound like those they have studied.

String the obvious: One needs to learn everything that's needed in order to be able to create the music one want to create. And - there's of course a very simple way to measure if your method works: are you capable of creating the kind of music you want to make?

The other essential aspect is IMO to check if one is capable of creating something which is different from those one is inspired by. If you can do that without learning whatever one sees as 'music theory', fine – but why would someone not learn as much as possible (and relevant) for whatever creative process one is into?
 
I think these radio style streams are great and look forward to more thanks.

On topic, I personally think the basics of MT are required.
Even tools like Scaler and EZ Keys etc still need the basics to understand what it's actually doing?

My version of your catapult theory is, a poet/writer/blogger who has a good grasp of grammar. He/she will be more effective and probably write better quality material.
 
Seems like a silly question to me, personally.

Of course, you do. Even when anyone says, they only know the 'basics' - that itself is also music theory. You cannot do anything without learning the basics.

And from there on - it is up to you and the sort of music you want to pursue and get better at. Composing music is a life long pursuit for most and I think it goes on for your whole life.

Now, the level at which you need to know things will depend on the kind of music you write. Honestly, trends come in and go. Anyone who has been around for at least a decade in a professional setting will tell you that things are always moving and changing. A musician grounded in any sort of tradition - synthesis, orchestration, composition or a combination of things, is well prepared for a long career.

I started in advertising, moved to films, produced songs, did some production music as well as trailer music. All of these things require different approach and experience. And thanks to my early days in advertising, it helps me to this day to get adverts as well as occasionally nail genres I would have never touched on my own.

Music theory is essential for all of those areas.

I will say this though - I think these days there is a fear of music theory for some people - dont worry about it! I stressed about it for years. Start small and slow. You can absolutely learn things as you go even if you did not have a traditional background. And trust me, you will be sooo happy learning all these things and being able to understand and incorporate the best of music from humanity in the last 500 years - that is worth something!
 
Of course, you do. Even when anyone says, they only know the 'basics' - that itself is also music theory. You cannot do anything without learning the basics.

But I could show a person how to use a DAW. No music theory required (NMTR).
They could then load Scaler. Select a preset. Export midi to DAW. (NMTR)
Replace each track with different Kontakts, (NMTR)
Load Damage. Press a few keys. Quantize (NMTR)

I'm not convinced music theory would have been involved in this would you? I'm not disagreeing with you, just looking at what DJ is hinting at.

Personally, I've never met a musician who said they wish they hadn't studied theory. I've met countless players who said they wished they had done more.
 
Of course, you do. Even when anyone says, they only know the 'basics' - that itself is also music theory. You cannot do anything without learning the basics.

Exactly that, even if all you know is just a basic C major scale or even if you understand the tonal difference between a C and a D note then you already using music theory. Music theory is essential if you want to compose music.

Even if you are into the sound design of things and you try to make a pad you are already trying to find the correct pitch of that pad and essentially you are using subconsciously music theory to fit the pad or drone for example in the composition, but instead of looking at it at like notes you are looking at the frequencies of the sounds which is the same thing. Same applies at rhythmic stuff and everything that has pitch in it.

But I could show a person how to use a DAW. No music theory required (NMTR).
They could then load Scaler. Select a preset. Export midi to DAW. (NMTR)
Replace each track with different Kontakts, (NMTR)
Load Damage. Press a few keys. Quantize (NMTR)

I'm not convinced music theory would have been involved in this would you?

Music theory is most certainly involved in this too but instead of you using it you let the machine do all the work and make all the decisions for you. And as a wise man said, f&*k the machine ;)

 
A bit off-topic, but I find there's a lot of glorification of Williams/Goldsmith/Herman style scores, and a yearning to get back to that style. That orchestral style is undoubtedly great for big dramatic epics etc, but how many of us are scoring huge blockbusters? Some projects call for ambient Eno esque minimal score, some for gritty Reznor ish industrial harshness. Are these styles not as 'worthy'? Personally I feel more of an emotional connection to Music For Airports than Braveheart, and I assume others may too...rant over
 
Music theory is most certainly involved in this too but instead of you using it you let the machine do all the work and make all the decisions for you. And as a wise man said, f&*k the machine ;)

Yes it's involved in the process, but not by the composer. The question was "does a modern composer need..."
It seems they don't. I'm not saying that's good... I'm just saying no theory is required given my above example (on the users part).
 
Modern media composers don't need theory..absolutely true. But even in that discipline why one might think not knowing is ok is beyond this old git. How good do you want to be? I always wonder if the DAW has made it too easy for everyone to think they can compose. Still, good music can and is written from scratch, so it's cool I suppose...;).

Postlude....Threads like How do I...? Why can't I?.... etc. are all symptoms of not knowing theory.
 
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If you love music it is completely beyond me how you could even ask this question. "Hey, there is this woman I fancy, and I want to be in a relationship with her. Do I really have to listen to her telling me about her hobbies, her job, how she grew up, what food she does and doesn't like, how she thinks about politics, and all that other boring stuff?" No, of course you don't have to. If you love her you'll want to.

I could stop here. But here's an analogy about tools letting you do what you want without understanding what you are doing: if you are stock trading, do you need to learn about economics, markets, the products you are trading? Of course not. You can register at the right place, fire up a computer program, and trade away. Chances are good you'll even earn some money on some of your trades. A computer or even a telephone is all you need. It's just that an educated trader will have much higher chances to make a profit, and not ineffectually waste a lot of time and/or money on mistakes that are known to not work.

Anyway, if you do want to know about music, Robert Schumann had amazing advice for young people. One of them being: "Don't be afraid of the words 'theory, counterpoint... '. If you approach them with good intentions, they will do the same for you".


https://www.google.com/url?q=https:...FjADegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw1S9cmu6vn8MlgYUvlhZOkE
 
Modern media composers don't need theory..absolutely true. But even in that discipline why one might think not knowing is ok is beyond this old git. How good do you want to be? I always wonder if the DAW has made it too easy for everyone to think they can compose. Still, good music can and is written from scratch, so it's cool I suppose...;).

Postlude....Threads like How do I...? Why can't I?.... etc. are all symptoms of not knowing theory.

I 100% agree. Whilst there are tools that allow composers to bypass these essential skills, why would you want to?
The best part of my musical journey has been theory! Certainly not sitting slowly dying in front of a DAW screen and checking out the Deals section.
 
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