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Cymbal Roll/Swell Placement Tricks?

Discussion in 'Composition, Orchestration & Technique' started by jmauz, Sep 13, 2017.

  1. jmauz

    jmauz Senior Member

    Hey everyone. A thorn that's been in my side for a long long time is getting cymbal rolls and FX swells to line up properly so that they crescendo at the correct moment. Of course it's easy to do visually with audio files but with MIDI I spend a lot of time nudging notes to achieve this. Does anyone have any tricks or clever techniques to help get this done efficiently??

    Thanks very much!
  2. JohnG

    JohnG Senior Member

    Nov 13, 2007
    there is no trick I know of that actually works to line up the timing -- trial and error as far as I know.

    Also, use these sparingly; they were massively overused in games and movies for so long that I avoid them like the plague now.
  3. ckiraly

    ckiraly Active Member

    Feb 3, 2017
    Record the audio from your MIDI track(s), then place the audio exactly where you need. The MIDI doesn't have to be perfectly aligned, just close enough to get what you're looking for.
    Fab likes this.
  4. Saxer

    Saxer Senior Member

    Mar 30, 2008
    It's mostly the same. Either you need:



    or just

    or sometimes

    Needs some time to adjust but you can save the midi region/part/clip muted in the template. Once done it's just a copy/paste job.
    gsilbers and desert like this.
  5. jononotbono

    jononotbono Luke Johnson

    Personally, I just render these kind of things to audio and move them visually using the transient. I keep the midi in a hidden disabled folder so I can always go back to it but rendering to audio is the fastest way for me.
  6. Jeast

    Jeast Senior Member

    Apr 23, 2015
  7. babylonwaves

    babylonwaves Senior Member

    May 9, 2015
  8. Kubler

    Kubler Senior Member

    Jan 6, 2016
    I agree with @jononotbono

    I have a folder full of rendered orchestral effects such as cymbals, so that I just have to pick one and put it in my tracklist.

    Berlin Percussion by Orchestral Tools also has suspended cymbal patches with modwheel-controlled swell. I use them when I need specific or complex modulations in said swell.
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017
  9. jononotbono

    jononotbono Luke Johnson

    Yeah well don't get me wrong. I don't really render them and store them in a folder for a rainy day etc. I will play them with the VI and Midi/Instrument track but render them to audio asap. Sometimes different Mic Positions need to be used etc and then all of a sudden using pre rendered stuff doesn't quite work with the new track. On another note, I do have lots of swear words pre recorded and reversed that I surreptitiously slip into my music any chance I get.
    mc_deli and Kubler like this.
  10. Kubler

    Kubler Senior Member

    Jan 6, 2016
    @jononotbono Yeah no mistake, I was just telling my own method. I agree on the fact that an already bounced sample is easier to use, no matter where it comes from ^^

    I laughed way too hard x')
    jononotbono likes this.
  11. JJP

    JJP I put dots and lines on paper.

    Apr 29, 2008
    Los Angeles
    I find it can help to play these parts in real time. Once you hear the sample, you can usually get it in one of quick practice take and then a final if you have a good sense of time. I often do nudge it a little, but that's minor and then I move on.
  12. jononotbono

    jononotbono Luke Johnson

    Oh definitely. Try and play everything in. Well, I do. I'm a musician and like to play. However, latency and lining up transients to avoid a muddy mix means meddling and rendering to audio (for me anyway).
  13. OP

    jmauz Senior Member

    Thanks for all the replies guys! I'm off to record some swear words....lol. ;)
    jononotbono and Kubler like this.
  14. gsilbers

    gsilbers Part of Pulsesetter-Sounds.com

    in logic there is bounce in place (prolly same in all daws) but in one keycommand i can render and see the waveform and move it to the right place. auditioning them in kontakt is what takes the longest to do!
    if you have the ability to see a bunch of of swells waveforms and auditiion them quickly on the right place and drag and drop into your daw, then for me thats the quickest, which i can do in logic but since most risers and swells are inside kontakt... well. its pita. i dont use also the timed swells. i havent find them as useful as i would think they should be... if that makes sense. seems i still have to fiddle with them.

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