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Cubase vs logic... is hans zimmer right?

StefanoM

Senior Sound Designer & Composer
The plugins themselves are introducing time variations. That is the part you don't seem to understand
I understand very well.

but because also the engine is different.

Please can you answer ? .. The delay compensation of ProTools HDX is the same of Cubase or Logic and viceversa.
 

Dewdman42

Senior Member
you have not shown anything that would indicate the engines are different. You have only shown that a complex set of plugins are capable of delivering mixes that do not exactly match, due to time variations that might be happening in the plugins.
 

StefanoM

Senior Sound Designer & Composer
you have not shown anything that would indicate the engines are different. You have only shown that a complex set of plugins are capable of delivering mixes that do not exactly match, due to time variations that might be happening in the plugins.
Yes, exactly. And the reason is that the Delay Compensation ( so .. the phase between the tracks and the aux/buss) is different for different Audio Engines, in this situation, which means..... a different sound.
 

StefanoM

Senior Sound Designer & Composer
As far as I know its up to the plugin to inform the DAW how much delay it produces, so the Daw can apply this as automatic delay compensation.
True, but for example ProTools HDX has a limit in samples, so in a complex mix could be some differences for examples with Cubase.

And How the software apply the automatic delay compensation is not exactly the same. For Example Studio One and the low latency mode is a little bit different.

Anyway, I'm saying only that each DAWs in a complex workflow has a different sound. Because in a complex workflow usually, I Use Plugins, maybe standalone EQ, send, aux, buss, reverbs, maybe dithering....etc etc . So is no so wrong say this. Of course in a " traditional" null test , no plugins.. ( simple tracks exported with the engine unloaded ) the result will be the same.
 
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Saxer

Senior Member
There are a lot of possible differences. The more complex, the more differences. Could be delay compensation. Could be a difference in the plugin versions (VST vs AU). Could be a different audio level the channels feed into the plugins because of different calibrations. Even with non modulated plugins (avoiding reverbs and choruses) different input levels into compressors will result in different volume changes. I even believe if you rebuild the same song twice (not save and reload) using the same plugins in Cubase there will be differences.
 

Dewdman42

Senior Member
Some of those possibilities, I think are highly unlikely.

For example, delay compensation, why should it make any difference? All major DAW's allegedly perform sample accurate plugin delay compensation. Not sorta sample accurate. Sample Accurate. That means all tracks playback exactly when they are supposed, accurate to the resolution of a sample. different DAW's may or may not have different methods they use to achieve track synchronization, but the end result in each case should be absolute sample accurate results. If any daw is doing anything other then sample accurate, it should not be used, period. They are all sample accurate, un less there is a bug somewhere in some situation, then it should be reported and fixed by the vendor.

All the major DAW's report themselves as providing sample accurate plugin rendering...the manner of PDC does not matter one bit.

The difference between VST and AU also makes absolutely Zero point zero sonic difference. ZERO. They are merely API interfaces that access the same underlying algorithms and DSP calculations.

Different audio levels of course could render different results, that is a user error or decision, not the fault of the specific daw

I agree with you that compressors are responding to the input sound and operating different calculations based on the incoming volume. If the incoming level is even slightly different it could cause the compressor to do different things

and on and on.. Any kind of plugins Nullify a null test.

If you really want to find a problem with LogicPro then take a look at AdmiralBumbleBee's recent work, but FWIW, he also found problems with Cubase.
 

EgM

Game music!
I like how "complex" and "complex tracks" is being used a lot here without any clarification whatsoever.
 

ProfoundSilence

Senior Member
how many of you would be willing to bet your life on being able to guess if a track was rendered in logic or pro tools?

would you bet your life with maybe best 2 out of 3 with HZ guessing?

These hypotheticals of "golden ears" with a "perfect room" and "audiophile monitors" really don't mean a single thing, you'll be happy if someone shows your track to someone on their shitty mono speaker on their cellphone. Infact - the bulk of music is probably going to be played on these kinds of devices, by people in noisy enviroments, with terrible ears, and terrible speaker(s).

the difference is infinitely smaller than 1 single take of a part you play into your daw.
 

ProfoundSilence

Senior Member
One thing has been completely, incontrovertibly established in this thread. It’s a fact:

Anyone who read this entire thread has too much time on their hands. :::looks at self in mirror:::
I can instantly tell straight away when someone replies which browser they were using, and if it's chrome it's rubbish! What you type in on netscape navigator you get out!
 

shomynik

Active Member
how many of you would be willing to bet your life on being able to guess if a track was rendered in logic or pro tools?

would you bet your life with maybe best 2 out of 3 with HZ guessing?

These hypotheticals of "golden ears" with a "perfect room" and "audiophile monitors" really don't mean a single thing, you'll be happy if someone shows your track to someone on their shitty mono speaker on their cellphone. Infact - the bulk of music is probably going to be played on these kinds of devices, by people in noisy enviroments, with terrible ears, and terrible speaker(s).

the difference is infinitely smaller than 1 single take of a part you play into your daw.
Although how big of a differrence is wasn't the subject, I generally absolutely agree. That's why I pass further research on the subject...except maybe finally watch the video @Dewdman42 posted. It was always too long to bare.
 
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halfwalk

Member
Plugins contribute confounding variables that you cannot account for in these "null tests" without completely reverse-engineering the DSP (for starters). They are black boxes for all intents and purposes in the context of this thread.

Furthermore, the same sort of thing applies to the actual DAWs themselves. As end users, we don't actually know what's happening inside the black box. We know what we put in and what we get out, and have to make assumptions and inferences based on that limited information. This makes scientific rigor much more complicated in this context. And it leaves a lot of room for cognitive bias to enter into the mix. We are operating under the assumption of what we think is "supposed to" happen in a DAW, without actually having certainty of what actually is happening, and how.

I'm not saying things like this can't be accounted for, but we definitely aren't accounting for them here.

There is also the appeal to authority (e.g. so-and-so has "golden ears"), but that's almost a different discussion entirely.

My point is, without the required data (among other things, the source code of every plugin and DAW involved) this exercise is pretty pointless, unless you simply happen to enjoy it. Even if a DAW A sounds different than DAW B (and only under arbitrary "complex" conditions, at that), the difference is negligible, and completely subjective anyway.
 
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pkm

Senior Member
Ehehe Ok. I see that we don't understand. I know very well a null test. But I'm saying something different. I'm not interested to show that the Audio Engines "unloaded" are all identical. I know this.

BUT:

If a mix created, How I explained before, have some differences, because if I put the 3 files, with phase inverted the result is not a complete cancellation, this means that there are some differences. The "reason" is not important. I've used same plugins, same settings.

And the differences are for the reason that we have talked.

I repeat ... For example, do You think that the Delay Compensation of ProTools HDX works exactly in the same way of Cubase?

Do You Have ProTools HDX ? The Delay compensation of ProTools is different from Cubase.

So the Delay Compensation can be a reason for some differences in the mix.

Bye
With this method, I would bet that you could prove that Cubase doesn’t sound the same as Cubase.
 

sourcefor

Active Member
One thing has been completely, incontrovertibly established in this thread. It’s a fact:

Anyone who read this entire thread has too much time on their hands. :::looks at self in mirror:::
Exactly....But I have to say that i almost read the whole thing only because i was contemplating switching to Cubase from logic to take advantage of the Cross platform ability and NOT be tied to APPLE in case they ditch us Logic users! But, I have to say..spending a few days with CUBASE, I think it does sound great and I am not sure why, but LOGIC is way easier to use, at least for me! But I will continue to use both to see which one will stick and maybe not, just use both!!!
 

Dewdman42

Senior Member
Exactly....But I have to say that i almost read the whole thing only because i was contemplating switching to Cubase from logic to take advantage of the Cross platform ability and NOT be tied to APPLE in case they ditch us Logic users! But, I have to say..spending a few days with CUBASE, I think it does sound great and I am not sure why, but LOGIC is way easier to use, at least for me! But I will continue to use both to see which one will stick and maybe not, just use both!!!
I have also been testing them both this week and Cubase can't handle nearly as many tracks as LogicPro can on my 5,1 MacrPro. Cubase is using 3x the CPU power...I actually did methodical tests and it is actually 3x average cpu usage...and can't play even 75 instrument tracks without halting audio a minute in; while the same project on LogicPro can go to 100 tracks doesn't break a sweat, 25% avg cpu usage and could probably handle many more tracks.

Cubase has some interesting features, as does LogicPro, they each have their pros and cons. I don't subscribe to the theory that Cubase sounds better unless someone can prove it, which nobody has. But Cubase performance on my cheesegrater is abysmal. It sucks together with VEP too, and VSL engineers basically tell me they think Cubase performance sucks also on mac.
 
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