Con Moto - Violins A - Available Now

jaketanner

Senior Member
I also want to add this little kid bit of information. So confirmed, is the cello library has additional articulations/attacks, because it was a by product of the recording, and was not planned. The violin B does NOT have this same attack adjustment and flexibility, so it does not play the same...it's like they're from two totally different libraries. To me, there isn't even any congruity to these samples to work as a whole. It's frustrating because the sound is so good, yet it's so lacking :(
 

midiman

Active Member
I have no issues with the one by one thing. OT is going that route I believe later this year, but I'll bet you it's not going to be limited to one articulation.

So you're not really buying a single instrument library, you're buying a single articulation, from a single instrument. I mean let's price out a solo instrument like Joshua Bell for instance. It's regarded as one of the best solo violin libraries out right? It's price is currently $199. It has 11 different articulations, and then a slew of different varieties of those articulations...something in total along the lines of 30+? now I am well aware that a single violin will cost less than hiring 8 musicians, and there is more time involved...but if they're just playing one articulation, how long could it possibly take in the studio? My point is that the price point may have worked years ago when choices were far less. I also appreciate that PS might be feeling that they're treading that elite status like Apple...where they can price a metal stand for $1k, but that's a whole different topic...LOL

I am also not taking anything away from Performance Samples with their incredible sound and playability that they achieve. But to price their cello at $149 in comparison only, is steep. Their intro price is totally fair, and that's when I buy. One can also argue that there are no comparisons, as PS is in a league of their own...and again, they may very well be. I truly truly love the sound of their recordings, but once I have all their instruments of the Con Moto series, I am still left with only one articulation, and using them only for legato. I have their Fluid Shorts...not the same recording or amount of players, so it's not like Fluid is the SHORT articulations that are missing.

What I am looking forward to however, is their joint venture with a Nashville chamber strings orchestra. Apparently it will be more complete...but that can take years.

For now, I can only hope that the cello goes on sale soon, and that they release the violas in a reasonable time.
Forgive me if I am misreading your message, but what I hear is a contradiction: You say their Price point does not work in today's market. But you are looking forward to their release of the violas. Sorry but it is confusing and contradicting.

Furthermore, your comparison with the Joshua Bell Violin is also not fair. The PS Cellos and Violins B are both amazing. I don't know how long it took them to record it in the studio, but they have spent a stupid amount of hours of programming on these to make it as perfect and as musical as possible. You complain about them taking too long to release new instruments, but the reason for that is exactly the insane amount of time it takes to program these, and the perfectionism they put into it. I am just thankful that they put them out when they get to finishing them into perfection.

It is simple - If you think they are too expensive when comparing to other libraries, then it is a free market, go buy those libraries. I am sticking with Performance Samples because I think they are better than any other, and I do not find them expensive, given they get used EVERY single day at my studio. I have the Joshua Bell violin. It is good. But I do not use it often. It is not so easy to use. But I use the Solos Of the Sea Solo Violin very often (Yes, even though it has only Legato) because It brings my ideas to life better than other libraries do.

I said it before and I'll say it again - Libraries should not be measured by number of articulations or patches. They should be measured by how often they get used, and how they lead you to write better music and produce that music to higher standards.

Too many people complaining about the price here. We are all rather lucky that Jasper is devoting time to create amazing libraries for us composers. We should be thankful for it. And for some, if they find it too expensive because it is only one articulation, then don't buy. But please do not start to question the amount of hours of work that goes into making one of these libraries, and comparing apples to pears. Sorry for the rant. But I don't enjoy seeing this kind of criticism to an indie company that is making some of the most amazing libraries ever produced.
 

jaketanner

Senior Member
You say their Price point does not work in today's market. But you are looking forward to their release of the violas. Sorry but it is confusing and contradicting.
Their price works for their intro price...it's like half off their regular price. totally worth it...but if people are 2 days late (that's another ridiculous time frame, but another topic), it's full price...

I am just thankful that they put them out when they get to finishing them into perfection.
I am thankful too, but not as much as you are...LOL ...but for me it's their sound that got me. But it's like anything else, if you want something bad enough someone will pay for it. I have all the time in the world to wait for sales...I am not hurting for their library, but I like it because it is a different animal. But I don't need this now for any particular gig, so the urgency on my end isn't there.

I use the Solos Of the Sea Solo Violin very often (Yes, even though it has only Legato) because It brings my ideas to life better than other libraries do.
So after you have your legato idea and you want to have the solo violin play a short note, you switch to another library? Or a marcato, or portamento?
I would love to have their solo violin...their free violin is what got me hooked on to them in the first place. Again, limited...BUT, this one I feel is worth it for whatever strange reason, I would pay the $139 for the solo violin. Why? because it will probably get used more often, as you said, you use it every day and it's worth having. I use tons of other complete libraries, so it's not absolutely necessary to have the cello right now. Not like I can do anything with it anyway, it's a cello and violin...I like to write for a complete section, so I'd be waiting anyway for their other releases.

I don't enjoy seeing this kind of criticism to an indie company that is making some of the most amazing libraries ever produced.
PS have their competition too, and other developers are making incredible libraries as well. I am not disagreeing with you, I am saying that they're not the only game in town. The complaints about the prices are not for lack of money, it's again, what you are getting for the price compared to what you can get with other ALSO great libraries.
If you feel that PS is the best of the best, that's all good...it's debatable, and that's what makes these arguments relative. I do agree that it does come down to use. Will their con moto cello spark some creativity that I Haden't thought of???, maybe, but then I'd be stuck using half a string section. At least with the violas release, I can use CSS CB to make up for it, as they sound similar and in the context of an orchestration, I can get away with it.

I agree on most things with you except that they're a steal for the price. On sale, in a heartbeat, they're worth it for sure...at full price, I'd need more thought into it. But I am glad that you are this passionate about a library...and will wait years for them to complete..I think it's been at least a year or more since the cello and their Violin. At this rate, a complete library will be 4 year in the making.

I will probably pick up the solo violin, because I do feel that I can get use out of it. So maybe it is a straight up use issue.
 

midiman

Active Member
Their price works for their intro price...it's like half off their regular price. totally worth it...but if people are 2 days late (that's another ridiculous time frame, but another topic), it's full price...



I am thankful too, but not as much as you are...LOL ...but for me it's their sound that got me. But it's like anything else, if you want something bad enough someone will pay for it. I have all the time in the world to wait for sales...I am not hurting for their library, but I like it because it is a different animal. But I don't need this now for any particular gig, so the urgency on my end isn't there.



So after you have your legato idea and you want to have the solo violin play a short note, you switch to another library? Or a marcato, or portamento?
I would love to have their solo violin...their free violin is what got me hooked on to them in the first place. Again, limited...BUT, this one I feel is worth it for whatever strange reason, I would pay the $139 for the solo violin. Why? because it will probably get used more often, as you said, you use it every day and it's worth having. I use tons of other complete libraries, so it's not absolutely necessary to have the cello right now. Not like I can do anything with it anyway, it's a cello and violin...I like to write for a complete section, so I'd be waiting anyway for their other releases.



PS have their competition too, and other developers are making incredible libraries as well. I am not disagreeing with you, I am saying that they're not the only game in town. The complaints about the prices are not for lack of money, it's again, what you are getting for the price compared to what you can get with other ALSO great libraries.
If you feel that PS is the best of the best, that's all good...it's debatable, and that's what makes these arguments relative. I do agree that it does come down to use. Will their con moto cello spark some creativity that I Haden't thought of???, maybe, but then I'd be stuck using half a string section. At least with the violas release, I can use CSS CB to make up for it, as they sound similar and in the context of an orchestration, I can get away with it.

I agree on most things with you except that they're a steal for the price. On sale, in a heartbeat, they're worth it for sure...at full price, I'd need more thought into it. But I am glad that you are this passionate about a library...and will wait years for them to complete..I think it's been at least a year or more since the cello and their Violin. At this rate, a complete library will be 4 year in the making.

I will probably pick up the solo violin, because I do feel that I can get use out of it. So maybe it is a straight up use issue.
Fair points you make. I don't think I ever said they were a steal, or please quote me if I'm wrong. I said they are worth it, or not expensive. That is different than saying it is a steal.

I have been able to very effectively use the Cellos and Violins to bring out more important lines, whilst using other string libraries for the violas and basses. And I am still happy to have these. I look forward to the violas and Violins A. But having these ones for the past year was amazing and very useful to blend with other libraries. But if you only like to use a full string library from ONE developer I can understand that and you should wait the complete thing to be available. Maybe at that time there might even be a bundle pricing...
For me it is OK in the meantime to use what they released so far. The Solo violin Solos of the sea is by far my favorite violin. It has a low footprint, but it plays so beautifully.

My two favorite string libraries right now are Con Moto, and the Afflatus, which coincidentally both have been attacked by some in the forum as being too expensive. But the reality is that they offer something that takes me to places that no other library was able to before. It's all relative. For me they have been worth it for sure.
 

jaketanner

Senior Member
I said they are worth it, or not expensive. That is different than saying it is a steal.
True but wasn’t quoting per se, just as I perceived it. And I think the most frustrating part about this is that I DO want it so bad, but to limit my writing to work within the library is frustrating. However, sale days are ahead of us and I’m sure come the holiday season, those cellos will be mine. Lol

Great talk. Best of luck.
 

midiman

Active Member
True but wasn’t quoting per se, just as I perceived it. And I think the most frustrating part about this is that I DO want it so bad, but to limit my writing to work within the library is frustrating. However, sale days are ahead of us and I’m sure come the holiday season, those cellos will be mine. Lol

Great talk. Best of luck.
I'm sure you'll get lucky in the Holiday season. Those Cellos are worth the wait :)
Best of luck to you too.
 

Saxer

Senior Member
I'm rather sure when the Con Moto string section will be complete (whenever that will be) it will get a good section price. I personally don't find incomplete sections useful. So I'll wait.
 

Vik

Scandi Member
if they're just playing one articulation, how long could it possibly take in the studio?
That depends on whether that one articulation is legato or not, and also: on whether it's a playable, convincing legato or a legato which easily is recognised as sampled. Making a legato instrument is of course so much more work (recording, coding) than recording non-legato long notes or any of the short articulations – there are probably hundreds of samples per note.

Maybe PS would make more money if they lowered the price... I wouldn't know. And I'm not comparing Con Moto with the Joshua Bell solo violin (haven't tried it, but it sounds great in demos). I only disagree in "the Con moto series is too expensive. No other way to look at it" – especially the last part. :)
 

Sovereign

Senior Member
Correct!


Maybe some developers WANT lower demand. Especially if the money is going to be about the same. Higher demand does not always = more money. Maybe some developers know that their customers like the fact that not everyone has this library, that library. Maybe some developers aren't in it for the money.
Every developer is in it for the money, no one claims or pretends to be a charitable organization. So you're giving quite unacceptable and strange rationalizations here why they price their stuff so high. No matter how you slice it, there is no other company charging this much for a single[!] legato articulation. None, zero. Neither small, nor large. Does the patch sound great? Sure, I think it does, that's why I bought it. Is it super duper special? Hell no, it's not necessarily 'better' than most of the legato patches I own. It's even missing a simple rebow/repetition function. Based on how others are pricing their products I'd say $75 per legato articulation would be 'fair', and even that would be stretching it a bit.
 
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Sovereign

Senior Member
That depends on whether that one articulation is legato or not, and also: on whether it's a playable, convincing legato or a legato which easily is recognised as sampled. Making a legato instrument is of course so much more work (recording, coding) than recording non-legato long notes or any of the short articulations – there are probably hundreds of samples per note.
24 intervals per note, per dynamic. I had a look at the samples they recorded, their patch is not closed and you can easily go into the Kontakt editor to check this. What they recorded and how they do it seems to be pretty standard compared to how other libraries are doing their legatos.
 

chocobitz825

Senior Member
"the Con moto series is too expensive. No other way to look at it" – especially the last part. :)
It costs what it costs, so there is no other way to look at it. It’s fine of course to disagree about various factors, but they price it for whatever they need to price it at. Whether it be profit incentive, or for branding or just for breaking even. You can say if you felt you wouldn't pay so much for what you got, but that doesn't mean they're wrong for pricing it the way they do. Many users feel they got the value from the product and the price for it was fair.

There’s a weird thing about the arguments on price. Accessibility isn’t a right. There’s no obligation for them to price things at a price point we like. We don’t even know exactly what factors go into that kind of pricing. We can reference other lower priced libraries but we don’t know how that pricing was determined or if it’s even working for the developers. The price is what it is, and you choose to buy it, or wait for a sale or skip it all together. Developers are not responsible for pricing low enough so that we can have the budget to buy all the libraries we want without feeling a financial crunch. They’re only concerned with their product and the needs of their brand.

It was noted as an example that afflatus was priced extremely high, compared to broader featured libraries like orchestral tools or spitfire. I’ve dropped money in all of them and comparison is really pointless because they’re not the same product. The same class of product maybe, but they all are different doing different things and you have to decide if that cost is worth the risk/investment or not. This is really just an old and tiring back and forth about the entitlement toward affordability we begin to feel when temptation and curiosity are put before us.
 

jaketanner

Senior Member
I'm rather sure when the Con Moto string section will be complete (whenever that will be) it will get a good section price. I personally don't find incomplete sections useful. So I'll wait.
They made a point in saying on their site, that the sum of the intro priced instruments will be LESS than the discount on the completed library. So at least it will be around the $$450-500 range? Judging by the intro sales. And for one articulation, I think they're going to have a hard time selling.
 

jaketanner

Senior Member
It costs what it costs, so there is no other way to look at it.
I've accepted that PS will not consider more reasonable pricing. I will continue to buy them on sale, or wait. But most of the arguments are about what you get for the price...which in turn makes it look like it's expensive. Is Afflatus expensive? It's priced similar to SF Symphonic Strings and Berlin Strings and also VSL. Afflatus has an actual GUI with tons of tweaks, and auto divisi plus 25 different legato bowing and various other articulations...etc, etc...so their price point seems to be on par for what you get. The differences are minimal between the libraries at that price point, not worlds apart like PS. Who here would pay $799 for Afflatus if it were just one legato patch and nothing else? Furthermore, it's not even a Kontakt NI library, so people that have the free version can't even buy it.

I do agree that it's futile to try and justify why a developer does what they do, and for the choices they make. I mean look at the stupid Apple monitor stand that costs $1k...for a STAND. It's insanity...truly insane. LOL

One thing that we ALL agree upon here is that they sound awesome. And I guess the value of this library seems to be personal.
 

chocobitz825

Senior Member
I've accepted that PS will not consider more reasonable pricing. I will continue to buy them on sale, or wait. But most of the arguments are about what you get for the price...which in turn makes it look like it's expensive. Is Afflatus expensive? It's priced similar to SF Symphonic Strings and Berlin Strings and also VSL. Afflatus has an actual GUI with tons of tweaks, and auto divisi plus 25 different legato bowing and various other articulations...etc, etc...so their price point seems to be on par for what you get. The differences are minimal between the libraries at that price point, not worlds apart like PS. Who here would pay $799 for Afflatus if it were just one legato patch and nothing else? Furthermore, it's not even a Kontakt NI library, so people that have the free version can't even buy it.

I do agree that it's futile to try and justify why a developer does what they do, and for the choices they make. I mean look at the stupid Apple monitor stand that costs $1k...for a STAND. It's insanity...truly insane. LOL

One thing that we ALL agree upon here is that they sound awesome. And I guess the value of this library seems to be personal.
I think since its rare to pay section by section these prices seem a bit off. Assuming every section was $149 (though It’s said this is not a standard price for all of them), to get 4 sections would be about $600, plus $79 for fluid shorts Which includes various sections. $679 for that quality is actually fine with me, and seems comparable to afflatus. While afflatus has more unique patches, it doesn’t necessarily provide the same variety as OT Berlin strings. So again this I why the comparison is difficult. If Con Moto came as a series that included fluid shorts priced at $600, I still think that’s reasonable given the versatility and playability of Con Moto’s Legato.
 
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jaketanner

Senior Member
I still think that’s reasonable given the versatility and playability of Con Moto’s Legato.
Well here’s the other issue. Seems like the instruments are all going to even have the same flexibility. So the cello has different attacks, while the violin does not. I asked PS about this, and they just said they got luck with the cello and found those extra samples. So they included them in. But now you have instruments that are all going to okay differently than each other? It just seems like congruity isn’t something they’re even concerned with.
 

chocobitz825

Senior Member
Well here’s the other issue. Seems like the instruments are all going to even have the same flexibility. So the cello has different attacks, while the violin does not. I asked PS about this, and they just said they got luck with the cello and found those extra samples. So they included them in. But now you have instruments that are all going to okay differently than each other? It just seems like congruity isn’t something they’re even concerned with.
I could see why that could be an issue if one wanted to use them in place of another full library. I never really got the impression that Con Moto was supposed to be a full ensemble for these purposes. The icing on the cake right? Less a standalone library and more-so a library to work in concert with others to enhance certain lines. I don't get the feeling this was designed to be a complete solution for anyone. their disclaimers on each library’s shortcomings kind of cemented that for me.
 

jaketanner

Senior Member
I could see why that could be an issue if one wanted to use them in place of another full library. I never really got the impression that Con Moto was supposed to be a full ensemble for these purposes. The icing on the cake right? Less a standalone library and more-so a library to work in concert with others to enhance certain lines. I don't get the feeling this was designed to be a complete solution for anyone. their disclaimers on each library’s shortcomings kind of cemented that for me.
Well if that’s the case, and they’re supplemental, it makes their price even worse. Lol. But I definitely see why you’d feel that way.
 

chocobitz825

Senior Member
Well if that’s the case, and they’re supplemental, it makes their price even worse. Lol. But I definitely see why you’d feel that way.
There’s definitely no way to say its on the low end in cost. It also depends on the type of writing you do as to how far these libraries go for people. For me Metropolis Ark was supplemental and prices around $550. It’s got a different set of tools and articulations, but at its cost its an expensive supplemental library. So I mean, its just the wild west out there for pricing. As long as I can make the money back from work, I try not to think too much about it.
 

jaketanner

Senior Member
There’s definitely no way to say its on the low end in cost. It also depends on the type of writing you do as to how far these libraries go for people. For me Metropolis Ark was supplemental and prices around $550. It’s got a different set of tools and articulations, but at its cost its an expensive supplemental library. So I mean, its just the wild west out there for pricing. As long as I can make the money back from work, I try not to think too much about it.
That’s the thing. No work at the moment to justify buying it. Need is not urgent.