Closure - BBCSO Demo

BlackDorito

Active Member
To all of us: we better stop piling on the praise - it will go to Mattia's head and he will lose his natural humility :)

Mattia, I suspect the 'Concert score' PDF is derived from the Sibelius score that drives NotePerformer and not the exact score of the MP3. I say this because right at the end I seem to hear a short celeste figure that isn't in the score. I suppose the PDF score represents the vast majority of the MP3 rendition, missing a few embellishments added during the Cubase phase, yes?

Once again, nice piece. [Sheesh .. there I go heaping on the praise]
 
OP
Mattia Chiappa
To all of us: we better stop piling on the praise - it will go to Mattia's head and he will lose his natural humility :)

Mattia, I suspect the 'Concert score' PDF is derived from the Sibelius score that drives NotePerformer and not the exact score of the MP3. I say this because right at the end I seem to hear a short celeste figure that isn't in the score. I suppose the PDF score represents the vast majority of the MP3 rendition, missing a few embellishments added during the Cubase phase, yes?

Once again, nice piece. [Sheesh .. there I go heaping on the praise]
Hey! Yeah that is correct, I should have gone back to correct the few little changes I made :)
 

erikradbo

Active Member
Here is an attempt with other libraries, using Mattis project files:


First: learned a lot of orchestration tricks by working with this, thanks for that Mattis!

Regarding the libraries used:
Strings: CSS, close mics, some EQ and Exciter, Spaces So.Cal Strings. +CSSS where BBCSO leader patches was used.
Brass: CSB, ordinary mics, Spaces So.Call Brass
Winds: BWW Legacy, close mics, So.Cal Winds
Percussions: HOP, So.cal percussions
Harp: Angelic Harp

Everything through Spaces Northwestern Hall and Ozone.

Comments:
- Thanos is used for CSS legatos, but it's still a little off at places. Could be that the legato midi parts has to be a bit off in BBCSO to sound precise.
- CSB legatos are lazily nudged a bit, but isn't very precise
- CSS strings generally doesn't need that much CC action, so I erased all the expression CCs and evened out some of the modwheel CC. To make it sound even better new modwheel data needs to be recorded, this is more or less the same CC as with BBCSO. Also had to change some CC channels to make it match.

General impression is that dynamics are lower recorded in BBCSO compared to these other libraries, the modwheel action was generally at quite high values, and had to back off volume quite a bit to make it somewhat similar.

Of these two version, I still prefer the BBCSO for the cohesiveness and pleasantness in the sound, but then much more time would have to be put in to get the best out of these other libraries.
 
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Here is an attempt with other libraries, using Mattis project files:


First: learned a lot of orchestration tricks by working with this, thanks for that Mattis!

Regarding the libraries used:
Strings: CSS, close mics, some EQ and Exciter, Spaces So.Cal Strings. +CSSS where BBCSO leader patches was used.
Brass: CSB, ordinary mics, Spaces So.Call Brass
Winds: BWW Legacy, close mics, So.Cal Winds
Percussions: HOP, So.cal percussions
Harp: Angelic Harp

Everything through Spaces Northwestern Hall and Ozone.

Comments:
- Thanos is used for CSS legatos, but it's still a little off at places. Could be that the legato midi parts has to be a bit off in BBCSO to sound precise.
- CSB legatos are lazily nudged a bit, but isn't very precise
- CSS strings generally doesn't need that much CC action, so I erased all the expression CCs and evened out some of the modwheel CC. To make it sound even better new modwheel data needs to be recorded, this is more or less the same CC as with BBCSO. Also had to change some CC channels to make it match.

General impression is that dynamics are lower recorded in BBCSO compared to these other libraries, the modwheel action was generally at quite high values, and had to back off volume quite a bit to make it somewhat similar.

Of these two version, I still prefer the BBCSO for the cohesiveness and pleasantness in the sound, but then much more time would have to be put in to get the best out of these other libraries.
Perfectly!
This version sounds more natural to me mainly because of the legato CSS, CSSS, CSB, BWW.
May I ask you why you limited yourself to only one close mics for strings? In my opinion they really lack the body. I would leave at least the main mic. Sound clear but subtle. Harp is really a little knocked out. Otherwise, everything seems fine to me.

It will be interesting to listen to other versions from other users with other libraries.
 
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erikradbo

Active Member
Perfectly!
This version sounds more natural to me mainly because of the legato CSS, CSSS, CSB, BWW.
May I ask you why you limited yourself to only one close mics for strings? In my opinion they really lack the body. I would leave at least the main mic. Sound clear but subtle. Harp is really a little knocked out. Otherwise, everything seems fine to me.

It will be interesting to listen to other versions from other users with other libraries.
To make it more cohesive and give all instruments the same room instead of the recorded one, instead of CSS room and BWW room together. I will try some other mix and mic variations though, I'll post if anything is good.
 

erikradbo

Active Member
Perfectly!
This version sounds more natural to me mainly because of the legato CSS, CSSS, CSB, BWW.
May I ask you why you limited yourself to only one close mics for strings? In my opinion they really lack the body. I would leave at least the main mic. Sound clear but subtle. Harp is really a little knocked out. Otherwise, everything seems fine to me.

It will be interesting to listen to other versions from other users with other libraries.
Good morning! I tried it with the main mics for all libraries, adjusted the main reverb, placed the harp better and did a little adjusting of the percussions.


It's better with main mics, and compared to BBCSO I'd pick it for many occasions, but it really comes down to sound preferences in the end. What might be lacking in cohesiveness I think is down to mainly two things:
- Percussions: Percussions don't fill out the soundscape well here, the HOP sounds a like a late joiner to the party. The BBCSO percussions are said to be one o the great strengths of the library, and the difference is obvious.
- Timing of brass and percussions: Melody lines of brass are a bit skewed due to CSB legato delay, and part of the percussions such as cymbal swells hasn't been perfectly adjusted to the HOP patches.
 
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Good. About the main mics, I meant to mix it with a close mics, thereby you will preserve detail, but at the same time add mass and warmth. You are able to do this in different proportions. One way or another, it is a matter of taste. You can also mix all the available microphones for each section according to your mood. ;) Reverb should work for bonding.

Can't say anything about percussion HOP. This is probably not the best choice as a percussion library for this piece.
 

Maxtrixbass

New Member
This really is a lovely piece of music. Interesting how the two renditions come across so differently, but both IMHO work very effectively. The performance, orchestrations, and the composition really work for me.
 

bricop

Member
Hello!

I just finished working on this track. I wrote this precisely to test the new BBCSO library. I tried to make it sound the best I could given I only really had a couple of days to play with it. I had a ton of fun making this and I'm curious to know your thoughts!

Here's the track:


Thanks for listening!


EDIT:

Project files: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ce1i8okmxghw6dx/AADS2yjegnnaaPhDYRI-vtbfa?dl=0
Such a beautifully composed piece and thanks for sharing the files for analysis!! I'd be interested to know your process of going from score to DAW. Do you export as xml or midi? I normally delete all the noteperformer/sibelius midi data and then record the modulation data in live. Please do share your workflow from score to DAW. Thanks
 
OP
Mattia Chiappa
Such a beautifully composed piece and thanks for sharing the files for analysis!! I'd be interested to know your process of going from score to DAW. Do you export as xml or midi? I normally delete all the noteperformer/sibelius midi data and then record the modulation data in live. Please do share your workflow from score to DAW. Thanks
Hey man, thanks! My workflow is really really simple. I like to print the score and play everything in :) I don't mind spending a bit longer to record the parts myself unless is something beyond my abilities, but even in that case I usually slow it way down until I can play it. This is a personal preference and by not doing so I suspect I would feel limited. This way I'm also learning the score by playing the parts and it forces me to practice reading music, which I suck at :sad:
 

bricop

Member
Hey man, thanks! My workflow is really really simple. I like to print the score and play everything in :) I don't mind spending a bit longer to record the parts myself unless is something beyond my abilities, but even in that case I usually slow it way down until I can play it. This is a personal preference and by not doing so I suspect I would feel limited. This way I'm also learning the score by playing the parts and it forces me to practice reading music, which I suck at :sad:
That’s really good to know. I’m going to try it with an orchestral score as I tend to work from raw midi data. With regards to controller data, do you play in cc1 cc11 and cc21 or do you copy and paste the cc1 data and then scale it up or down for cc11 and cc21? Some of your lines look beautifully parallel as if scaled versions of cc1. Lastly, when recording controller data, do you use your ears to determine dynamics or do you equate written dynamics to cc parameters? Keep up the amazing work!!
 
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OP
Mattia Chiappa
That’s really good to know. I’m going to try it with an orchestral score as I tend to work from raw midi data. With regards to controller data, do you play in cc1 cc11 and cc21 or do you copy and paste the cc1 data and then scale it up or down for cc11 and cc21? Some of your lines look beautifully parallel as if scaled versions of cc1. Lastly, when recording controller data, do you use your ears to determine dynamics or do you equate written dynamics to cc parameters? Keep up the amazing work!!
I play that in as well. I have those parameters assigned to 3 near faders that I can control at the same time using 3 fingers. Before getting a cc controller I used to have modulation, expression and vibrato all assigned to cc1 but I am liking now the flexibility to be able to have control them individually.

For dynamics I don't have any specific reference for what they correspond to midi values. I do it by ear, and hopefully it should be natural, if you have clear vision to what your music is supposed to sound like. When I'm balancing a new template though, I usually record passages from real scores using ff as my top dynamic layer and mf somewhere in the middle. It helps quite a bit setting your benchmark and knowing you can't go above that.
 

Levon

Member
A stunning composition Mattia! The library sounds great in your hands. The one main thing I took away from listening to the various versions is that BBCSO sounds like a group of musicians playing as a unit. I don’t have the library yet but i plan to purchase it if it is included in their BF or Xmas sale. As a beginner in terms of orchestration and production I find the idea of being able to share and analyse fellow BBCSO owners scores of great benefit in terms of beginning to learn the craft.
 
OP
Mattia Chiappa
A stunning composition Mattia! The library sounds great in your hands. The one main thing I took away from listening to the various versions is that BBCSO sounds like a group of musicians playing as a unit. I don’t have the library yet but i plan to purchase it if it is included in their BF or Xmas sale. As a beginner in terms of orchestration and production I find the idea of being able to share and analyse fellow BBCSO owners scores of great benefit in terms of beginning to learn the craft.
Thank you! I’m working on something new quite a lot different from this, which I’ll also be happy to share along with score and files if anybody will still be interested.
 

erikradbo

Active Member
I'd be really interested in hearing this with SSO, is anyone trying that out? I have SCS, so might exchange CSS for SCS and see how it sounds. Hint: this is a great piece for balancing templates.