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Pop Corn

Pop Corn

Active Member
With all these new libraries, now comes the horrid task of building a new template.

I'm curious to hear how you balance it, levels wise, mix wise, etc. I usually program a tutti chord to check levels but this time I'm going to try squeezing everything I own into one massive template, so the full orchestra, cinematic percussion, electric guitar amp sims, different drum kit mixes, etc etc. Just throwing everything in there and freezing/disabling/hiding/purging on a track by track basis. Its very daunting and not sure where to start this time. Thinking of starting with percussion and getting them sounding big and punchy before adding in other elements. Maybe an alternate template solely for pure orchestral stuff?

Share your experience and expertise 🙂
Click to read more...
 
This is a very intresting topic, im in cubase 11, my cpu can hold up to 60-80 active tracks before get drops and stops with buffersize of 1024

I tried to create a BIG template using all the libraries that i own and i could reach the 500 tracks (crazy thing) all purged and disabled, but i noticed that even with this aproach my cpu was being used at 70% without reaching its usual limit of 60-80 active tracks, so this option is not for me (at least for now hehe)

So after this (failed) experiment i created specific little templates that involves fewer libraries and wont make my cpu overload its limits.

The other choice is to go with an empty template and add the libraries that i need at the moment.

I would like to know the people having cpus with 12-16 cores and buffer of 1024 (or more) how many tracks can handle before reaching their cpu limits, because im planing an upgrade soon and this info would help me a lot.

Edit: answering some of your questions, i create buses for every orchestral sections with some fx (eq, bus compressor, satueation) and active them when needed, i also create a pre master bus to add some final fx (like final eq, mastering compressor and ott if needed) also i add for every track and bus a vu meter to check audio levels from the start to the end of the chain

Thanks for this post, it is a very intresting one
 
Many thanks for your detailed reply 👍

I think I'll take the multiple smaller templates approach myself. Since I posted, I began putting a template together and plan to have my definite 'go to' instruments in there (Orchestral Sections, the usual taiko/Damage suspects, a few guitar tracks and drum tracks and 5-10 placeholders for synths/atmospheric stuff).

Studio One also has track presets so I'm thinking of making a bunch of those (like an Ethnic one that has ethnic perc, winds, strings, etc) and building a sort of modular template that way, bringing multiple instruments in at once only when needed.

I got to about 500 tracks too in my last template but even with folders/hiding/disabling, it was a nightmare trying to manage. Not worth the hassle.

As for multicore CPUs, as far as I know, single core speed is all that matters and multithread performance doesn't matter a whole lot in the DAW world apparently.

Thanks for your input 🙂
 
Try to find a lightly mastered, non-striped (all the orchestra recorded together) soundtrack, recorded in a room you admire, playing music close to the style you want to write.

The Abbey Road Orchestra is another good reference. It is much quieter than most libraries - but it is loud enough that when all the orchestra is playing loudly together there is just a little bit of headroom. There is no scientific or objective answer for how loud samples should be, but I think that is a musically useful answer.
 
Pop Corn said:
As for multicore CPUs, as far as I know, single core speed is all that matters and multithread performance doesn't matter a whole lot in the DAW world apparently.
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I brought this up in this thread -- I am still thoroughly confused about Mac's with multiple cores and whether or not they have any bearing on DAWs
 
I see a template as a collection of inspiring sounds and orchestral elements ready to play with that are tweaked to sound decent or have any clear mix problems chopped out. I can't tell you the number of times that I found a sound that I thought was going to be kick ass but then it just doesn't work in compositions for some reason. Stuff like that is hard to predict.

I would focus on getting one library sounding great and using that as your core sound, then adding things you think have potential as layers or unique tones around that.

Really important to keep in mind that your template will evolve with every composition. As you find things that work to your ear and others that don't. Don't try to shoot for the moon right away or it will be daunting and a massive time sink that you will realize you need to tweak anyways when you start writing.

Spend a good bit of time demoing and trying different combinations of reverbs on your aux master buses for each group. Using a little bit of several reverbs can really sculpt a sound that is your own and deal with the vast recording differences in various libraries.

Don't be afraid to use a lot of eq. It took me a while to realize that is extremely important to getting a realistic sound, even if you have the best libraries that claim to be engineered by pros. Strings especially need a lot of cutting eq to fit right in the mix and sound more distant. Generally most libraries are too frequency dense to my ear and I always cut some frequencies in every group.

A little compression on the drum bus goes a lot way too. Compression on orch is generally a no-no but with samples all bets are off imo. It can be the key missing ingredient to getting your mixes sounding like a record / soundtrack. The right amount of compression can really make something sound alive, especially solo instruments.
 
Greg said:
Don't try to shoot for the moon right away or it will be daunting and a massive time sink that you will realize you need to tweak anyways when you start writing.
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This is a key part when starting a template. Get the core of what you use sorted out, then expand from there as you go.

If using VE pro, I suggest putting the core stuff in there (e.g. the orchestra) and loading other things (sound design, synths, certain percussion, etc) directly into the DAW. If you find you use those extra things over and over, integrate them into your permanent template.

Or leave those extra things in the DAW but disabled. Then you can easily delete them if you don't need it any more, and it doesn't affect the VE pro setup.

If not using VE pro, use a fully-disabled template.

Also the more you have loaded, the longer the save times can become and the larger the project files can become. Leaner can be better in that regard. VE pro helps a bit with this (even if used on the same machine) as you can decouple it from the DAW while writing (which makes save times really fast), and then re-couple it periodically to save all the VEpro data with the DAW file (save time is longer for this).

In terms of balancing it all. I find it best to actually write something in order to to this. Just start writing, and you'll start rebalancing as you go. Once you're done, if what you wrote is generally representative of what you tend to write, save that new configuration as your template.
 
I use an "Audition" Template for referencing all my sounds on my disks. This is thoroughly categorised and folderised and sub folderised. It's currently about 5000 sounds disabled. I used to try to include optimisation, group channels, eq, gain, pan etc but then realised this is a fools errand as every project setting is different (though I might say apply a little eq to strings on rare occasions). Evenv the same instrument, at different dynamics, will require different tweaks.

I use clean virgin projects as my "Music" projects and use this process to find sounds as I desire, the only thing I have in them is one piano for testing and a Surround Audio test file:

With the music project open, if/when required, I open the audition project, activate it, listen to my sounds, take note of their locations and close the project, activating the Music project. I goto File/Import Tracks from Project, and import the tracks I need. The whole process takes less than a minute. Also because my 5000 track project are all disabled, it loads in 7 secs.

This way all my music projects carry zero baggage/RAM use. No Vepro required.

Here is a copy of my Cubase Master Audition gtemplate. Obviously it won't open well on your system, but if you ignore all the error messages for programs you don't have, and set up the audio for your system, a culled version may be useful https://1drv.ms/u/s!Ai7g90pI7-tKjdVP9tuRKB1QkqTcBg?e=KHRd9e
 
All great suggestions, very timely. Having just upgraded to 64gB ram I'm working on a new orch. template. Up 'til now I've just been using sends to a single reverb bus but now have separate busses for each instrument group.

Very cool idea to Import Tracks from Project from a disabled master template! I'll be trying that soon.

I'm not wild about 1 track for each articulation so I'll be dipping my toes in the expression maps water soon. I found a few good vids on that. Wish I could find pre-made Cubase-12 map files at least for CSS and would be nice for the Audio Imperia Nucleus Solo lib too... but I'm not afraid to start from scratch if I have to.
 
There is an issue with Keyswitched instruments. I use them in my Audition template but not in my music projects. The issue is that offset can only be set for the track, not per articulation. Hopefully this wil be addressed soojn, it's LONG overdue and Steinberg have been lobbied by composers


Also check out Track Archives
 
Thanks for the heads up, I'll wait a bit on that one then. Good video, was not aware of how to use the presets and archives. I've got enough of a master template to be a big help now. Have not added EQ to the template tracks but the levels are all ready to go. Also have a nice orchestral sketch template based on Runar's tutorial --
 
Have master templates for libraries set up and keep them separate. Make sure you use some sort of naming scheme and organisation for the templates which are similar. Put tracks, buses, Fx into folders. Then import what you need from the project into your blank project.

Another thing you could do (which could take some time) is render down a small part for each instrument for auditioning in the media bay.

You could use individual track presets for this, but if you audition them from the right zone, Cubase loads up the sampler / patch in the background to allow you to hear it. Which can be slow and occasionally can crash.

Track presets and archives can become quite large too. Rendered audio previews might be a better way to go for auditioning. Although, I've not tried it.

Track presents are handy for putting together small templates that you're going to route etc... But if you already have projects set up and want to import chunks of a library ready to go with routing, the import from project is the go to IMO.

Expression maps kind of suck atm, because you can't adjust track delay per articulation.
 
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MarcusD said:
Have master templates for libraries set up and keep them separate. Make sure you use some sort of naming scheme and organisation for the templates which are similar.
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When I get a new library I create a template just for that library. This is in the same order as the library.
Then I use the import function in Cubase to import the whole library into my Master Audition Template. This is laid out in score order, then syths, then guitars, then Worlds, etc. Inside say the violins folder I have a sub folder for Solo Violins, Ensemble Violins, Aeleotoric Violin FX. Same with other instruments. I then drag the copied new library into these folders. This way, if I want to audition say a solo violin, it's all in one place, all my solo violins - mission critical IMO.
 
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More great suggestions ZZ. Marcus, your "Create an orchestral template" YT vid was a huge help, thanks so much. I just scanned your YT channel and see more I need to watch. Nice website too, wish I had one of the libs that your templates support.
 
ZeroZero said:
When I get a new library I create a template just for that library. This is in the same order as the library.
Then I use the import function in Cubase to import the whole library into my Master Audition Template. This is laid out in score order, then syths, then guitars, then Worlds, etc. Inside say the violins folder I have a sub folder for Solo Violins, Ensemble Violins, Aeleotoric Violin FX. Same with other instruments. I then drag the copied new library into these folders. This way, if I want to audition say a solo violin, it's all in one place, all my solo violins - mission critical IMO.
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That is a great way to do it. Most satisfying.

Chris_B said:
More great suggestions ZZ. Marcus, your "Create an orchestral template" YT vid was a huge help, thanks so much. I just scanned your YT channel and see more I need to watch. Nice website too, wish I had one of the libs that your templates support.
Click to expand...

Thanks! The template videos might be helpful, but there are some videos on there that are a bit crap 😅
 
Tom_D said:
In terms of balancing it all. I find it best to actually write something in order to to this.
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THIS. For me, though, the most important thing is the "gain staging" for dynamics.

When I start to put the overall balances together, I just start noodling "whatever" random from the same key and pretty much just smash my keyboard for every instrument with similar dynamics to ensure everything is somehow balanced when playing. It is crucial for me and needs to be done because otherwise my balances are completely off per track and everything sounds like shit.

Having to play fff on a flute all the time and it's still not enough...or keeping the modwheel under 20 for the violins etc is hell and has happened to me too many times. So I always nowadays start with that "dynamics staging". I HATE when my volumes are messed up when I compose- the sound, tweaks and the mix are easily fixable for me later (when I'm finished with the composing), but fucking up the initial dynamics balance in the first place is a complete disaster and a total creativity killer.

I recently did a new quick template for demoing and here's a quick and very rude example how incredibly dirty I work when putting things together for that dynamics testing. :D Musical value is pretty much close to zero, but as a starting point it gives me already a balanced enough and playable dynamic palette and that's enough for me for this purpose.


View attachment templatenoodling.mp3
 
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Pop Corn said:
With all these new libraries, now comes the horrid task of building a new template.

I'm curious to hear how you balance it, levels wise, mix wise, etc. I usually program a tutti chord to check levels but this time I'm going to try squeezing everything I own into one massive template, so the full orchestra, cinematic percussion, electric guitar amp sims, different drum kit mixes, etc etc. Just throwing everything in there and freezing/disabling/hiding/purging on a track by track basis. Its very daunting and not sure where to start this time. Thinking of starting with percussion and getting them sounding big and punchy before adding in other elements. Maybe an alternate template solely for pure orchestral stuff?

Share your experience and expertise 🙂
Click to expand...
I am just now rebuilding my template. You can follow along at the YT channel below. I am starting with my computer optimization for the template:
 
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