Building my first real home studio!

OP
Ryan

Ryan

Senior Member
That may not be enough to solve the problem, but it can't hurt. The only disadvantage to angling the walls and ceiling is that you can no longer calculate modes reliably. You need finite element analysis - which is way beyond me.


Diffusion is probably not going to do much - you need to think in terms of wavelength, not frequency.

To get an idea of scale let's look at ISO 1/3 Octave Centers:

20.0 Hz 56.50 ft
25.0 Hz 45.20 ft
31.5 Hz 35.88 ft
40.0 Hz 28.25 ft
50.0 Hz 22.60 ft
63.0 Hz 17.94 ft
80.0 Hz 14.13 ft
100.0 Hz 11.30 ft
125.0 Hz 8.97 ft
160.0 Hz 7.06 ft
200.0 Hz 5.65 ft
250.0 Hz 4.48 ft
315.0 Hz 3.53 ft
400.0 Hz 2.83 ft
500.0 Hz 2.24 ft

(apologies for using Imperial measurements)

But you can see that a diffusor would have to be VERY large to affect energy even at 500 Hz.

To manage (you don't really control) the room modes you need to use absorption and reflection, and again the scale of the absorber is problematic. Look into a device called the Tube Trap. I no longer remember why they work, but they do, they are not snake oil. And they still won't solve the problem but they can help.


It isn't about failing, or succeeding! It is about getting as far as you can on your own, and then inviting someone with more experience to help you get further. That is an important distinction.
Hi again,

I most likely need to use some time tuning the room properly. I will off course do whatever I could to my self first before I contact ppl for help.

What you think of the psi audio Avaa c20?
 
OP
Ryan

Ryan

Senior Member
I am very excited for you. I’ve been through a commercial build once and it was a fantastic experience.

I’m not an expert. However, I’ve spent far too much time on John Sayers’ forum and with the literature.

There are a few alarm bells in what you have said on here. A floating concrete floor is expensive. Therefore it’s probably not a floating concrete floor. If you spend 50, 100, 150k on a studio and don’t install HVAC it suggests you don’t have expert advice or a sound plan. “You made sure” they built two walls... but are they actually isolated from each other, what construction was used... and your studio will only be as soundproof as your windows and doors.

If your inner/outer leaves (walls and ceiling) are not decoupled and sealed properly you are burning money.

There are a few nightmare scenario threads on John Sayers and your posts here remind me too much of those. I hope that your build is water tight and it’s just getting lost in translation...

but I beg you... spend a few hours writing an intro post on John Sayers now and get some expert feedback:)
All the walls and concrete are totally isolated from the rest of the building. Is a room inside a room build. See attached pictures. Sorry, the descriptions are in Norwegian. The reason I got rid of the HVAC is because I don't see the reason for using that amount of money on something that could be a pain in the ass problem (tubes going trough walls, ceiling etc). That could most likely be the weakest link in my build. The windows was also necessarily to have, if not I haven't got the permission to build from the municipality. Some of the rules in Norway (fire escape, lightning, etc). The door will be a 40 db massive soundproof door.



ldIsolation and walls.png
Insulation concrete.jpg
 

Rex282

Active Member
That Salvador Dali portrait would freak me out a little!

View attachment 25048

Fun fact - he designed the Chupa Chups logo.

View attachment 25047

if you look at any one of them for too long they do that(but I don't).They are intense self portraits of three masters.I can imagine them scrutinizing me and pushing me to be better ,and they give my room lots of art vibe.I like them more than static vibe of most panels that look like colored boxes hung on a wall.The arts are interconnected and this was my portal into graphic arts.
 

wst3

my office these days
Moderator
What you think of the psi audio Avaa c20?
I'm not sure what to think. On the surface it seems like a clever idea, but there are concerns on the execution, not the least of which is that $2500 is a lot to spend on a partial solution.

My first issue is that this will almost certainly behave like a tightly tuned trap. The advertised bandwidth is about 3 octaves, which would not not terrible if it were 3 useful octaves. I don't know your room dimensions, but a room with standing waves at 15 Hz would be HUGE! The shortest dimension would need to be on the order of 35 feet (feel free to check my math, that was a lazy guess!)

My second issue is that a single device would probably not be sufficient because it would not cover enough of any boundary, which means the price is probably closer to $5000 for a "typical" control room.

And maybe I'm just a grumpy old fart, but there are many other ways to address low frequency problems, and they do not depend on trickery - or at least not a lot of trickery. One example that comes to mind is the ASC Tube Traps, $2500 will buy five of them.

I have heard PSI monitors at past AES shows, and they are really good. A trade show floor is no place to make that kind of choice, but I'd put them up against Barefoot, PMI, ATC, and others - all of which are way out of my league<G>! So it is not that the company is not legit, nor am I suggesting that the bass trap is snake oil. It just strikes me as a solution in search of a problem.

Since you have used non-parallel surfaces it would make the most sense to measure the room modes. Let's see where the problems are before you spend money on solutions that may not fit.

If you do not have a measurement rig take a look at StudioSixDigital, their audio tools are about as good as it gets short of dedicated hardware, and their measurement microphones represent a great value. I use their iAudioInterface2, and even I am tempted to grab one of the uTestMic or iTestMic2 microphones to keep in my backpack.
 
OP
Ryan

Ryan

Senior Member
I'm not sure what to think. On the surface it seems like a clever idea, but there are concerns on the execution, not the least of which is that $2500 is a lot to spend on a partial solution.

My first issue is that this will almost certainly behave like a tightly tuned trap. The advertised bandwidth is about 3 octaves, which would not not terrible if it were 3 useful octaves. I don't know your room dimensions, but a room with standing waves at 15 Hz would be HUGE! The shortest dimension would need to be on the order of 35 feet (feel free to check my math, that was a lazy guess!)

My second issue is that a single device would probably not be sufficient because it would not cover enough of any boundary, which means the price is probably closer to $5000 for a "typical" control room.

And maybe I'm just a grumpy old fart, but there are many other ways to address low frequency problems, and they do not depend on trickery - or at least not a lot of trickery. One example that comes to mind is the ASC Tube Traps, $2500 will buy five of them.

I have heard PSI monitors at past AES shows, and they are really good. A trade show floor is no place to make that kind of choice, but I'd put them up against Barefoot, PMI, ATC, and others - all of which are way out of my league<G>! So it is not that the company is not legit, nor am I suggesting that the bass trap is snake oil. It just strikes me as a solution in search of a problem.

Since you have used non-parallel surfaces it would make the most sense to measure the room modes. Let's see where the problems are before you spend money on solutions that may not fit.

If you do not have a measurement rig take a look at StudioSixDigital, their audio tools are about as good as it gets short of dedicated hardware, and their measurement microphones represent a great value. I use their iAudioInterface2, and even I am tempted to grab one of the uTestMic or iTestMic2 microphones to keep in my backpack.
Hi again!
I'm very unsure what to think about this unit/active bass trap my self. You get a lot of nice outboard gear for $2500, and to have two is like you say $5000.. However, I feel tempted to get one on loan from the dealer here in Norway. Would be quite interesting to see how it interacts with my room dimensions. Not long ago I read about those ASC tube traps. They seem quite nice.

I have a pair of PSI monitors (just really really good sounding stuff), so I have some confidence that the products they produce is at a certain level. That why I have considered to get one or two for a loan to see how they interfere in my room.

I haven't hear about StudioSixDigital. I will look into it! The stuff I see on their website looks good.
 

Nick Batzdorf

Moderator
Moderator
There are a room mode, reverb time and transmission loss (material use) calculators on the John Sayers forum.
There's no search function unless you join the forum, but just be aware that a simple room mode calculator won't tell you which modes are okay and which aren't. Once you call in the architects, it becomes more complicated.

And yet I also argue the other side: you can almost any existing room workable pretty easily. Starting from the ground up is different.

Ah, so it's just because you're replacing air cavity with drywall, not because the middle wall is bad. Makes sense. Thanks.
 

Gerhard Westphalen

Scoring Mixer
I'm not sure what to think. On the surface it seems like a clever idea, but there are concerns on the execution, not the least of which is that $2500 is a lot to spend on a partial solution.

My first issue is that this will almost certainly behave like a tightly tuned trap. The advertised bandwidth is about 3 octaves, which would not not terrible if it were 3 useful octaves. I don't know your room dimensions, but a room with standing waves at 15 Hz would be HUGE! The shortest dimension would need to be on the order of 35 feet (feel free to check my math, that was a lazy guess!)

My second issue is that a single device would probably not be sufficient because it would not cover enough of any boundary, which means the price is probably closer to $5000 for a "typical" control room.

And maybe I'm just a grumpy old fart, but there are many other ways to address low frequency problems, and they do not depend on trickery - or at least not a lot of trickery. One example that comes to mind is the ASC Tube Traps, $2500 will buy five of them.

I have heard PSI monitors at past AES shows, and they are really good. A trade show floor is no place to make that kind of choice, but I'd put them up against Barefoot, PMI, ATC, and others - all of which are way out of my league<G>! So it is not that the company is not legit, nor am I suggesting that the bass trap is snake oil. It just strikes me as a solution in search of a problem.

Since you have used non-parallel surfaces it would make the most sense to measure the room modes. Let's see where the problems are before you spend money on solutions that may not fit.

If you do not have a measurement rig take a look at StudioSixDigital, their audio tools are about as good as it gets short of dedicated hardware, and their measurement microphones represent a great value. I use their iAudioInterface2, and even I am tempted to grab one of the uTestMic or iTestMic2 microphones to keep in my backpack.
I've heard good things about the C20. Especially adding them to a room that already has extensive treatment. I've seen a lot of people using just a pair but without extensive treatment you'd probably need a few more. The general concept of them is pretty sound. My only issue with them is the price. I think there's an Italian company which makes acoustic treatment products that makes something similar but cheaper.
 

mc_deli

n trepreneur
There's no search function unless you join the forum, but just be aware that a simple room mode calculator won't tell you which modes are okay and which aren't. Once you call in the architects, it becomes more complicated.

And yet I also argue the other side: you can almost any existing room workable pretty easily. Starting from the ground up is different.



Ah, so it's just because you're replacing air cavity with drywall, not because the middle wall is bad. Makes sense. Thanks.
Google still works ;)

This is the one commonly cited:

I don’t follow you on the triple leaf. My understanding is that triple leaf can theoretically give good results in extreme circs (large air gaps) but in real world situations triple leaf creates problem frequencies where the sound transmission loss is much worse than double leaf.

This is relevant to e.g. most conversion projects where there are often existing single or double leaf walls i.e. in a domestic setting with cavity walls the last thing you want to do is add a third leaf because you may get worse performance at certain frequencies than you started with.
 

mc_deli

n trepreneur
All the walls and concrete are totally isolated from the rest of the building. Is a room inside a room build. See attached pictures. Sorry, the descriptions are in Norwegian. The reason I got rid of the HVAC is because I don't see the reason for using that amount of money on something that could be a pain in the ass problem (tubes going trough walls, ceiling etc). That could most likely be the weakest link in my build. The windows was also necessarily to have, if not I haven't got the permission to build from the municipality. Some of the rules in Norway (fire escape, lightning, etc). The door will be a 40 db massive soundproof door.
Looks great. With HVAC ducting the “budget” solution is to make MDF baffle boxes lined with duct liner. And have these inside the room at the inlet/outlet points. There’s a thread with some theory and what to avoid here:


The expensive solution is to buy ready made metal baffle boxes from a HVAC supplier. We did this in a commercial build and they are very large, take loads of planning and a large chunk of cash.

I am at similar to Norwegian latitude a few countries across ;) Where I live we have temperatures from -25 to +25. Heat and air. I don’t get how you can choose not to have these?

(I’m only coming back again because not planning HVAC is the #1 cause of pain/time/cash from the studio builds on Sayers and Gears****. The others are e.g. domestic non-specialist inexperienced contractors, floating concrete floors, triple leaf accidents, non isolated leafs, flanking paths, window/door framing weakest links. And I have my head in this right now as I have basement room to sound proof and it’s a nightmare to plan as I don’t know how many leafs are in the joining wall (argh) or how the concrete ceiling is constructed... I do have in/out air already so that’s something...)
 

Nick Batzdorf

Moderator
Moderator
I don’t follow you on the triple leaf.
What I wrote is a precis of your link about the triple leaf problem.

Its point is just that if you have, say, a 2' footprint for walls + airgap, you're better off with two walls and a larger air gap than with three walls and a small one.
 
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mc_deli

n trepreneur
@Ryan How are getting on with this?

I'm trying to plan and going through my own pain (flanking noise to neighbours) and I've been reading far too much again.

For reference, I found the classic three leaf thread rebuild on John Sayers that I thought of when I read your earlier posts:

And because it's only fair, here's my painful beginning, where I'm finding out what I thought was going to be simple is going to be a more € etc:


I was just re-reading this thread and something new struck me - you said you have one 40dB door - usually room-within-a-room construction means two doors... otherwise you lose the effect of the second leaf... what are you planning?