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doctoremmet

Senior Member
Hey Doc...I find it strange to have a library with ostinati for winds and brass...how often do you really need this? Brass and wind players would get incredibly tired no? Seems like an odd choice for a developer..LOL
I do not NEED any sample.

That important nugget of fact being out of the way... the 8dio brass ostinato libraries contain shorts and marcatos of 2 trumpetS+ 4 horns and tuba+2 bones, as wel as tuplets and triplets - and those just sound good and way more real than you could ever achieve playing them in with short articulations. So that is kind of appealing. On TOP of that it has the ostinati, which are also usable as little phrases, and runs that go to 11 and can quickly become weird. So yeah... I concur it is not really necessary. I’m also not that big on phrases, loops etc. so most of the Sonokinetic stuff is “not for me” so to speak. These 8dio ones though are borderline cases of hoarding. Anyway... I wasn’t planning to play in minutes worth of brass ostinatos in my music haha. I hear ya. But listening to the demos, the stuff did click with me.

Also, I am firmly in the “sample VIs are isolated instruments, so you always have to play / compose TO the sample” camp, “and people who claim their sample library based mockups will be neutral and can be replicated by a real orchestra effortlessly” get blank stares from me ;)
 
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lettucehat

Senior Member
Yeah that's where I found them! Core and Pro each priced at 199! Hard to beat!

Only thing is if I did end up going with CineBrass, which version would you recommend me getting? I've heard to start with Core and then get Pro as a sort of expansion, but I only have it in the budget to buy one right now.

I'm almost thinking about leaning towards Pro, since it's the same price anyway, but would there be anything that I should know that might put me off from doing that? Could getting Pro over the Core potentially take away from the features and overall sound that I want to emulate?
Sorry for the late reply, but people mostly answered these. The Core/Pro naming system is confusing - I'm glad I have Pro but you will be more than fine just getting Core. Pro will be lacking in some basics, even though the fully realized solo instruments and 12 Horn patches in Pro are pretty much essential to many.
 

[email protected]

Active Member
To give you an idea of how CineBrass blends with live I recently had a performance of one of my pieces played live and then I touched it up with CineBrass and some Spitfire for another client as a demo for another commission. Here it is:
Wow! That is really impressive. For me it's a perfect example that it's not that easy to really write a big sounding and powerful hymn and that for achieving this you need more than the usual "Trailerisms". It doesn't happen often that I click on an example here and then stop reading through the following posts because I was catched by the music. Chapeau! Would love to hear a complete orchestra version.
 

Rodney Money

On V.I. avoiding work.
Wow! That is really impressive. For me it's a perfect example that it's not that easy to really write a big sounding and powerful hymn and that for achieving this you need more than the usual "Trailerisms". It doesn't happen often that I click on an example here and then stop reading through the following posts because I was catched by the music. Chapeau! Would love to hear a complete orchestra version.
Thank you so much, my friend, you made my day. Concerning brass I think it has to do with utilizing their contrasting dynamic tonal colors from soft to loud, and really knowing how to use each register of their range. For example, the low range of a trumpet sounds fine when played with other trumpets in a trumpet choir but can sound dull within the full ensemble. Each instrument is different in how it responds. Just simple “stuff” like that.
 

José Herring

Senior Member
I want to retract my statement of not liking the low brass in 8dio's Century Brass. I'm forcing myself right now to stick with them and they are responding well to my ideas. Takes a little getting use to but so far I'm liking them. The Tuba and Cimbasso are excellent. The Trombones still trying to get the hang of them.
 

river angler

Active Member
For the most playable/programable and sonically pleasing/blending brass library on the market don't check this out at your loss!...


P.S Don't judge this astonishing library by trying to utilise the terrible Best Service trial player within your DAW! Even the marketing videos on this library don't compare to the sheer inspiration you get when you actually get down to using it!
 
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river angler

Active Member
...The only other brass library i would consider other than Chris Hein's would be Orchestral Tools Berlin Brass.

Like Chris Hein it has a straight traditional sound if with a slightly more subdued emotion in the sample recordings which is not a bad thing at all. To my ears it also has just the right amount of ambience baked into the samples in all mic positions for this type of sampling.

There are a few reasons why I never upgraded my Berlin Inspire libraries to the full Berlin orchestra sections but mainly because they have an either or scenario for controlling dynamics (via key velocity or cc) on all samples including sustains whereas Chris Hein offers a combo of both which is superb for striking initial timbre/volume levels then using the mod wheel/volume pedal to crescendo or descendo dynamics! This engine is the same throughout his orchestral libraries and IMO it's how all sustained articulations should be able to be played! Also the range of articulations in CH are less sedate than OT's versions somehow- that's not to say the OT samples don't sound good: they certainly do! It's just that they sound more conservative and that sound remains. CH libraries are recorded bone dry and also without any phase alignment problems which opens the samples up for extreme customisability.

In the grand scheme of things, as a composer looking to keep his own identity/style, I prefer to work with instrument samples that have less of an identifiable base sonic as it opens the doors to making them your own and goads you to pushing your own creative envelope compositionally and sonically.
 

river angler

Active Member
How does Chris Hein compare to Infinite Brass? Especially when it comes to Ensembles.
I'm not familiar with Infinite Brass but what I can tell you is that the ensembles in Chris Hein are total workhorses! However i tend not to use Ensemble patches as I prefer to orchestrate my sections myself rsather than leave it for an orchestrator to do who may end up spoiling the desired overall impression of the composition. The ensemble patches in CH and BOInspire are both excellent - I just don't use them unless I'm sketching a quick score.

For the rest of the library including all the solo instruments I can't recommend the library enough. All the solo brass instruments are absolutely awe inspiring to work with- right down to the solo Euphonium! I have the whole CH orchestra package and the same joy I get from using the brass is echoed through all the other orchestral sections!

CH is fantastic for both traditional classical and modern hybrid film/TV composition- it's just the best of the best IMO!
 
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mussnig

Senior Member
I'm not familiar with Infinite Brass but what I can tell you is that the ensembles in Chris hein are total workhorses! However i tend not to use Ensemble patches as I prefer to orchestrate my sections myself rsather than leave it for an orchestrator to do who may end up spoiling the desired overall impression of the composition. The ensemble patches in CH and Inspire are both excellent - I just don't use them unless I'm sketching a quick score.

For the rest of the library including all the solo instruments I can't recommend the library enough. All the solo brass instruments are absolutely awe inspiring to work with- right down to the solo Euphonium!

Sorry, maybe I was using the wrong word. I meant sections, e.g. 4 horns playing together. As far as I understand they were sampled individually. How "good" does it sound/work if you really just have the MIDI once (without slightly adjusting it for each horn)?
 

river angler

Active Member
Sorry, maybe I was using the wrong word. I meant sections, e.g. 4 horns playing together. As far as I understand they were sampled individually. How "good" does it sound/work if you really just have the MIDI once (without slightly adjusting it for each horn)?
If you are referring to the section in the GUI where you can "add players" I find I never need to use it! Another great thing about the library and again a nod indeed to the way it was recorded that you elude to, is that each section only offers 1 or two versions. Because each sample is a single player Chris was able to create sections with judicious alignment of various recording takes to make up "small" and "large" sections. I use either depending on the composition and (hate to repeat myself!) they just sound so musical and are also so easy to blend with other instruments weather those be orchestral or synthetic/hybrid.
 

river angler

Active Member
If you are referring to the section in the GUI where you can "add players" I find I never need to use it! Another great thing about the library and again a nod indeed to the way it was recorded that you elude to, is that each section only offers 1 or two versions. Because each sample is a single player Chris was able to create sections with judicious alignment of various recording takes to make up "small" and "large" sections. I use either depending on the composition and (hate to repeat myself!) they just sound so musical and poignantly so easy to blend with other instruments weather those be orchestral or synthetic/hybrid.
...Since acquiring CH libraries I realise that his way of sampling bone dry with single players makes more sense as a sampling technique for creating orchestral sections.

Yes! other developers would argue that there is something that happens when you record a bunch of players together soaking up the room ambience at the same time but at the end of the day you are stuck with that sample performance- something which on more than one occasion has been prone to irritating composers when they come across certain RR's that may contain one of the players not quite in sync or for whatever reason that RR just doesn't work in a mix. More troublesome is when the ambience of the room as leaked too much into the close mics. Admitedly this does not happen often especially with the more meticulous developers out there but beyond this aspect the phase align method Chris Hein has pioneered opens up so many clearer paths to more usable sample instruments on so many levels.
 

river angler

Active Member
Sorry, maybe I was using the wrong word. I meant sections, e.g. 4 horns playing together. As far as I understand they were sampled individually. How "good" does it sound/work if you really just have the MIDI once (without slightly adjusting it for each horn)?
... I just re-read your question... I hope my previous reply makes sense! Reading your question back it appears you think one has to physically play four different horns to create a 4 horn section which is not the case!... To be clear there are two ready made sectional patches one larger than in players than the other. On top of them you can reach for add more players and even detune and spread all of them in the stereo field but I have only used it a few times in hybrid orchestral scenarios. The result does not sound like a chorus effect as it would with other libraries that attempted to do this because of the phase alignment! Instead it indeed gives the impression of an even larger section that literally sounds like one! It almost sounds too much though! I don't know what the record amount of french horn players has been witnessed in a real live orchestral performance! but it's there if you really need it!
 

mussnig

Senior Member
... I just re-read your question... I hope my previous reply makes sense! Reading your question back it appears you think one has to physically play four different horns to create a 4 horn section which is not the case!... To be clear there are two ready made sectional patches one larger than in players than the other. On top of them you can reach for add more players and even detune and spread all of them in the stereo field but I have only used it a few times in hybrid orchestral scenarios. The result does not sound like a chorus effect as it would with other libraries that attempted to do this because of the phase alignment! Instead it indeed gives the impression of an even larger section that literally sounds like one! It almost sounds too much though! I don't know what the record amount of french horn players has been witnessed in a real live orchestral performance! but it's there if you really need it!

Yes, that basically was my question. These ready made sections are still based on individual recordings, right? So my question really concerned how convincing the sections sound.
With Infinite Brass you can of course send the same MIDI data to, e.g., 4 horns. Each one was recorded individually and you can also turn on some humanization. Still, it usually sounds better if each of the 4 horns gets it's own midi data ...
 

Trash Panda

Don't listen to this user
Yes, that basically was my question. These ready made sections are still based on individual recordings, right? So my question really concerned how convincing the sections sound.
With Infinite Brass you can of course send the same MIDI data to, e.g., 4 horns. Each one was recorded individually and you can also turn on some humanization. Still, it usually sounds better if each of the 4 horns gets it's own midi data ...
You can stack multiple Infinite Brass/Woodwinds together in a Kontakt instance and feed it the same MIDI data. Playing with the humanization (attack timing), accuracy (attack pitch accuracy) and even changing the tuning by a few cents (+/- no more than 3 cents) does a pretty convincing job of sounding like a full ensemble without doing multiple performances.

If you have a DAW that supports humanization of note duration in addition to timing and velocity, you can run each instance separately and copy/paste MIDI data fairly effectively.
 

mussnig

Senior Member
You can stack multiple Infinite Brass/Woodwinds together in a Kontakt instance and feed it the same MIDI data. Playing with the humanization (attack timing), accuracy (attack pitch accuracy) and even changing the tuning by a few cents (+/- no more than 3 cents) does a pretty convincing job of sounding like a full ensemble without doing multiple performances.

Yes, I was refering to this but I find it doesn't work quite as well as full section patches from other "classical" sample libraries. Obviously, the playability is superb - it just doesn't sound as convincing to me if you don't massage the MIDI of the individual instruments. I even did some tests with MIDI CC modulation etc.
 
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