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Black Friday Woodwinds Choice

Mikro93

Member
Makes sense. I figured I would only use one dynamic layer and the Expression CC, that seemed to work very well during my tryout. The Expression fader seems to be acting on volume and an EQ of some sort. Plus hey, if 1 dynamic layer is good enough for BWW, it's good enouch for me :)
 

I like music

Senior Member
I started a thread separately, but it seems like the question might be more relevant here. Anyone got Berlin Revive as well as Berlin Legacy, who can comment on which one they end up using? And with regards to Revive, do two dynamic layers actually matter/lower the quality of what you write? Curious to know if the lack of many dynamic layers has hurt anyone?

I ask because I've just downloaded legacy as well as revive, and due to lack of HDD space + the fact that it seems both revive and legacy are recorded in different halls etc I have to pick one to use in my limited template ...

Any help, massively appreciated!
 
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pipedr

Member
I really feel like this is comparing apples and oranges. Mixing a CH or FA wind instrument with an orchestra makes it sound like a concerto for that instrument, whereas something like Berlin/Spitfire WWs can easily blend into the orchestra.

I'd use CH or FA woodwinds for solo stuff, or very small groups, or situations where the instrument should be upfront. Meanwhile I'd use something like Berlin WWs for orchestral part writing. It just doesn't sound right if I use them the other way around (or maybe I'm just not that experienced?)

Can't comment on VSL as I don't have it
Since Berlin then can mix in with the orchestra but it also contains solo instruments, is Berlin a complete solution to woodwinds as compared to CH or Fluffy?

Do you need to buy the expansions of Berlin to make it complete?
 

Rob

Senior Member
Word of caution on CH woodwinds... bought the compact version the other day. I like them in general, but found some weird artifacts in a couple samples, maybe due to the phase aligning treatment. Clarinet for example has one right in the middle of its range, so bad that it makes the patch unusable. Legato transitions in wide intervals are a bit pitch bendy. Other than that, a pretty nice lib
 

axb312

Senior Member
Word of caution on CH woodwinds... bought the compact version the other day. I like them in general, but found some weird artifacts in a couple samples, maybe due to the phase aligning treatment. Clarinet for example has one right in the middle of its range, so bad that it makes the patch unusable. Legato transitions in wide intervals are a bit pitch bendy. Other than that, a pretty nice lib
Would you mind posting an example?
 

Henu

Senior Member
Concerning SSW vs. BWW, I think @ModalRealist really nailed it in another, older thread.

Choose SSW if...
  • you work in Air Lyndhurst/with very wet samples;
  • you mainly write in textures;
  • you don't generally write harmony for the woodwinds.
Choose BWW if...
  • you work with drier samples (EW Hollywood, CSS, Berlin, VSL, etc.);
  • you want to write harmonies in the woods;
  • you want to write idiomatic woodwind lines (runs, twirls, etc.).
 

Rob

Senior Member
Would you mind posting an example?
sure, here's first clarinet's Bb3, sustain patch, followed by some legato octaves on the flute...

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/clarbb3-mp3.16628/][/AUDIOPLUS]

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/fluteleg-mp3.16629/][/AUDIOPLUS]
 

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axb312

Senior Member
sure, here's first clarinet's Bb3, sustain patch, followed by some legato octaves on the flute...

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/clarbb3-mp3.16628/][/AUDIOPLUS]

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/fluteleg-mp3.16629/][/AUDIOPLUS]
Hmm...not too bad. But I see what you mean.
 

Rob

Senior Member
Hmm...not too bad. But I see what you mean.
well it depends on how serious you are with your tracks, that note is simply unacceptable. And, as a flutist, I can tell you that's not the way a flute does legato :)
 

axb312

Senior Member
well it depends on how serious you are with your tracks, that note is simply unacceptable. And, as a flutist, I can tell you that's not the way a flute does legato :)
I think the pitchiness of the bigger interval may get drowned out in an orchestral setting.

What was done to acheive that note/ ornament kind of sound with the clarinet? Cycling through dynamic layers? That sounded much worse...
 

Rob

Senior Member
I think the pitchiness of the bigger interval may get drowned out in an orchestral setting.

What was done to acheive that note/ ornament kind of sound with the clarinet? Cycling through dynamic layers? That sounded much worse...
I think that's a damaged wave file, as it has that glitch in each dynamic layer. And since that sample is stretched over three semitones one's very likely to stumble on it in a phrase... that's a pity because I do like the tone of the instruments
 
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Chris Hein

www.chrishein.net
Word of caution on CH woodwinds... bought the compact version the other day. I like them in general, but found some weird artifacts in a couple samples, maybe due to the phase aligning treatment. Clarinet for example has one right in the middle of its range, so bad that it makes the patch unusable. Legato transitions in wide intervals are a bit pitch bendy. Other than that, a pretty nice lib
Hi Rob,
Thanks for your order and congratulations, you found a little glitch in a sample which is easy to fix for me.
Would be nice if you just send me a mail so I can fix it instead of a warning.

The bending of the legato is adjustable in detail with different controls.
You can even program it with several MIDI CCs if you want.

Chris Hein
 

Chris Hein

www.chrishein.net
hi Chris, ok, I'll email you if I find other artifacts, bye
Thanks Rob, that would be great. I'll hire you as an additional Beta Tester for the next library. ;)
There might be a few more, and yes, its due to the phase alignment.
So, the glitch should not appear in Velocity mode and you have alternatives in other sustained articulations.
I hope you like the way the phase aligned samples blend between the six dynamics in general.

Its stretched over two semitones, not three!
All of my libraries, except CH-Horns are sampled every whole tone.

Chris Hein
 

Rob

Senior Member
CHclar.png
Thanks Rob, that would be great. I'll hire you as an additional Beta Tester for the next library. ;)
haha thank you, but I have no time for beta testing...
Its stretched over two semitones, not three!
All of my libraries, except CH-Horns are sampled every whole tone.
Chris Hein
usually yes, this particular sample though is over three semitones, for some reason...
 
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dzilizzi

I know nothing
Well, I ended up talking myself into BWW. Now I have to move to another computer to download it. There is not enough room on my laptop to download 312 GB. I'm thinking that is to download and unzip, because it is about half that size.
 
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pipedr

Member
I'm finding myself tempted by Berlin Woodwinds myself. Thanks to everyone for their thoughts so far. Here's some of my breakdown:

Fluffy Audio Woodwinds $179
(=$45 per instrument)
(Flute, Bassoon, Oboe, Clarinet)
Looks like about 5-6K samples, 5-7GB per instrument
3 dynamic layers.
No sampled runs? Is this capable of doing runs?
Pros: Lowest total sticker price, many praise the instruments, particularly the clarinet and flute
Cons: Maybe more specialized for solo or intimate work as opposed to in an orchestral setting. Missing piccolo, alto flute, english horn.

Claire Bundle
$344 (for me, with 50% VIP discount)
Fast and slow legato, arcs, runs (one octave major and minor)
3 mic positions
40GB for 7 instruments
About 5-7k samples per instrument
Pros: Praise, especially for the oboe and flute
Cons: Some complain of the programming from 8dio in general. Most expensive from a per instrument perspective of these options.

Chris Hein Winds Complete $240
(13 instruments, $18.50 per instrument)
Legato up to 4 dynamic layers
Shorts up to 8 dynamic layers
About 8K samples per instrument, 30GB total
Dry studio mic only (with convolution reverbs)--seems like people either like this or hate this, depending on whether you are in the wet or dry camp
Phase aligned samples (smooth crossfades at the cost of some sonic quality, to some)
Pros: Wins for dollar per instrument or dollar per sample. Most velocity layers. Most complete set of instruments.
Cons: Seems to require more programming to get the best results

Berlin Woodwinds Revive/Legacy
$432 Black Friday sale
3 separate flutes, alto flute, piccolo, 2 oboes, English horn, 2 clarinets, 2 bassoon
(So 12 instruments, $36 per instrument)
5 mic positions
3 attacks
Mostly 2, sometimes 3 velocity layers
Runs builder
157GB total revive and legacy
Pros: Many praise this library as their desert island wind library.
Cons: Do you need the expansions to make this a complete library?

Hard to decide. Each of the libraries seems to fill a certain need. Looked at from a dollar per instrument perspective, BWW on sale is more economical than I initially thought. However, that's assuming that you don't need the expansions to make it complete. I suppose if I could be reassured that this library would be the only one I would need, then I could justify the comparatively high sticker price.

I have experience with the 8dio instruments, and I find that I like their approach of selecting from several options with baked in expression, and relying less on using CC to shape the performance. However, it looks like BWW has something similar in that one can choose from various vibrato options. CH also has their shorts, which I think you can string along to get appropriate note lengths, but I'm not sure how this works out in practice.

Chris Hein seems like the best bargain, assuming that their instruments equal the other ones in the list. This may not be a bad assumption, given the reputation of the developer. However, I may be more in the wet than dry camp (haven't decided yet--I find myself really drawn to the sound of the Teldex stage, but Breeze has worked pretty well for me with VSL). Also, I may be more of a paint by articulation type rather than a play it and ride CC11 type, so the phase aligned sample approach might not be right for me. Also, I wish there were more demos or walkthroughs with just the individual instruments playing.

Fluffy has the lowest sticker price, and I've got a feeling I really couldn't go wrong with it, and then adding other libraries as I go along. However, I'd rather have a definitive library that I can learn and grow with, and it seems like Fluffy is not complete enough (with just 4 instruments) to serve as a main orchestral library.

Arrgh! One more day for the BestService sale, so a deadline approaches...
 

Ashermusic

Senior Member
It's true that while I love the Fluffy woodwinds, they are a less complete collection, so think of them as" in addition to" rather than"instead of."
 

axb312

Senior Member
I'm finding myself tempted by Berlin Woodwinds myself. Thanks to everyone for their thoughts so far. Here's some of my breakdown:

Fluffy Audio Woodwinds $179
(=$45 per instrument)
(Flute, Bassoon, Oboe, Clarinet)
Looks like about 5-6K samples, 5-7GB per instrument
3 dynamic layers.
No sampled runs? Is this capable of doing runs?
Pros: Lowest total sticker price, many praise the instruments, particularly the clarinet and flute
Cons: Maybe more specialized for solo or intimate work as opposed to in an orchestral setting. Missing piccolo, alto flute, english horn.

Claire Bundle
$344 (for me, with 50% VIP discount)
Fast and slow legato, arcs, runs (one octave major and minor)
3 mic positions
40GB for 7 instruments
About 5-7k samples per instrument
Pros: Praise, especially for the oboe and flute
Cons: Some complain of the programming from 8dio in general. Most expensive from a per instrument perspective of these options.

Chris Hein Winds Complete $240
(13 instruments, $18.50 per instrument)
Legato up to 4 dynamic layers
Shorts up to 8 dynamic layers
About 8K samples per instrument, 30GB total
Dry studio mic only (with convolution reverbs)--seems like people either like this or hate this, depending on whether you are in the wet or dry camp
Phase aligned samples (smooth crossfades at the cost of some sonic quality, to some)
Pros: Wins for dollar per instrument or dollar per sample. Most velocity layers. Most complete set of instruments.
Cons: Seems to require more programming to get the best results

Berlin Woodwinds Revive/Legacy
$432 Black Friday sale
3 separate flutes, alto flute, piccolo, 2 oboes, English horn, 2 clarinets, 2 bassoon
(So 12 instruments, $36 per instrument)
5 mic positions
3 attacks
Mostly 2, sometimes 3 velocity layers
Runs builder
157GB total revive and legacy
Pros: Many praise this library as their desert island wind library.
Cons: Do you need the expansions to make this a complete library?

Hard to decide. Each of the libraries seems to fill a certain need. Looked at from a dollar per instrument perspective, BWW on sale is more economical than I initially thought. However, that's assuming that you don't need the expansions to make it complete. I suppose if I could be reassured that this library would be the only one I would need, then I could justify the comparatively high sticker price.

I have experience with the 8dio instruments, and I find that I like their approach of selecting from several options with baked in expression, and relying less on using CC to shape the performance. However, it looks like BWW has something similar in that one can choose from various vibrato options. CH also has their shorts, which I think you can string along to get appropriate note lengths, but I'm not sure how this works out in practice.

Chris Hein seems like the best bargain, assuming that their instruments equal the other ones in the list. This may not be a bad assumption, given the reputation of the developer. However, I may be more in the wet than dry camp (haven't decided yet--I find myself really drawn to the sound of the Teldex stage, but Breeze has worked pretty well for me with VSL). Also, I may be more of a paint by articulation type rather than a play it and ride CC11 type, so the phase aligned sample approach might not be right for me. Also, I wish there were more demos or walkthroughs with just the individual instruments playing.

Fluffy has the lowest sticker price, and I've got a feeling I really couldn't go wrong with it, and then adding other libraries as I go along. However, I'd rather have a definitive library that I can learn and grow with, and it seems like Fluffy is not complete enough (with just 4 instruments) to serve as a main orchestral library.

Arrgh! One more day for the BestService sale, so a deadline approaches...
If you're talking about lowest sticker price, Hollywood Woodwinds (HOW) by EastWest should be in contention.

I'm in the same boat as you, but see the following problems:

1. BWW - Heavy on resources and disk space. Wet sound in the revive library will take some blending with CSS (which I own). Might need expansions/ solo instruments later (was considering combining fluffy audio and BWW). Expensive. Also fewer dynamic layers in some revive instruments and some phasing issues.

2. HOW - Doesn't get much love on here and apparently has phasing issues on some samples.

3. CHW - Difficult to program. No RRs on shorts. Sound is somewhat less fulfilling in the demos. Not much love on here.

4. Spitfire WW - perhaps too wet. Solo instruments may not work as well for exposed passages. Spitfire legato isn't the best.

5. VSL SE Winds - works out just a little cheaper than CHW (but more than HOW). Needs elicenser. Only 2 dynamic layers, with some X fade issues.

These are the main contenders for me. Which makes me think it might be better to wait, or get CHW, since it can be resold. Rumors of Musical Sampling Adventure winds, possibly Audiobro woodwinds and CSW (somewhere down the line)....OT has stated they will never do sales but have done numerous sales in the past 2 years.

Hope this helps.
 
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Casiquire

Senior Member
I don't have the Hein winds, but they work the same as the strings and I don't find them difficult to program at all. Perhaps the winds are different though.

VSL might be a good in-between as far as orchestral versus solo. While there are some areas where you hear phasing, it's pretty avoidable in most situations by adjusting the modwheel a bit or by using a patch that has a recorded dynamic swell--requiring the full library over the SE, of course.

I adore the sound of BWW but it seems that working with both the Revive and the legacy is more difficult than it probably should be. I hope they keep working on that.
 
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