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Bizet, Carmen Entr'acte template balance

Since some time this has been a project of mine to get to a point where there is a reasonable starting point from which to work.

For the study I chose a very nice piece of music from Bizet, which helps me to make the best of it (at this moment in time).

Constructive comments are welcomed. Specifically regarding mix, spacial feeling or placement of the orchestra sections. What you think is out of balance, to up front, reverb, etc.

I still have various considerations myself, but before moving on to another piece later on for study, I'd like to hear your assessments.

Thanks you in advance.

 
Hopefully someone is still willing to spend some time on listening and some feedback?

All useful commentaries are welcomed!
 
Hi Silence

Impressive work, you can clearly hear the labour and care that went into this one. I'd imagine it's a very tough job to mock this up, but you've done marvellously. If I were to nitpick I could mention a few minor points that stood out:

The harps high notes (eb and g) should not be accented in my opinion. It can get tiring if done on every bar, and in my opinion is more beautiful without the extra stress.

The flute is playing a bit behind sometimes, most noticeably in it's first bar, but also several times later on.

Harp and flute both could be just a tad more delicate. They are playing piano now, while it would be even more beautiful would they play pianissimo.

Very nice phrasing on the flute, especially from bar 6 to 7. Though the f and b in bar 6 could be a bit more connected.

When the strings come in they are maybe a bit too quiet, except for the basses pizz which is a bit too loud in my opinion.

The english horns entry is a bit abrupt. That sounds a bit too upfront. It's difficult to judge, but to my ears it sounds as if the english horn was sitting somewhere in the string section, while flutes and clarinets are placed behind it.

But these are all small things that don't diminish the listening experience one bit. I'd say you have much more than just a reasonable starting point here.

As for the mix I can add no more than saying that I like it. You have a wonderfully unobtrusive, clear reverb (and just the right amount for my taste). Great stereo width, nice instrument placement. Everything blends together nicely. I'm curious to know which spatialization tools and reverb you used. Again, impressive work on both the programming and mix.
 
Hi Muk,

Thank you very much for responding! Apparently I am heading in the right direction seeing your overall response. Really glad you took the time for this.

Many of your remarks, are exactly on the various points I wasn't yet satisfied with but can't always lay my finder on.
- the harp: yes indeed... now I know why I still wasn't happy with the highest notes standing out. PS: only recently I thought about the harp again and found out it wasn't playing soft(piano) at all, but instead I was lowering the volume, which didn't work.I will listen to it again by adjusting to pianissimo levels.

- the flute. I wanted some humanised feeling and delayed notes, but I also was feeling whether the timing was a bit too far off. Also here I will adjust some dynamics and look at some more pianissimo levels at the start.
the phrasing...... I will have a listen again with fresh ears. Thank you for these subtle indications, they can enhance the overall feeling of a real musical performance.

- the strings (when they come in) I have adjusted so many times, so I became a bit numb to what is still working. Also here a fresh listen will help with your indications.

- english horn: I am not yet hearing with you hear, but they may come. I want to leave it alone for a few days and start afresh. Will look again at the positioning and the dynamics.

- mix: over the past time I have received help from many sources from members of this forum and one specifically (Hannes_F) helped me a great deal with getting rid of the ER myth, and by a suggestion from him purchased the EAreckon2 reverb. And along with some good instructions with usage of EQ on the strings and reverb led me to gradually come to this result. But I owe much of that clarity to him.
Off course after his help I have done some experimenting and through trial and error (like we all do I guess) you get somewhere.
And I am happy to hear you hear the clarity in the mix.

So the libraries and tools used are:
- LASS (+ Albion low pizzicatos)
- Berlin woodwinds (flute, clarinet, bassoon)
- VSL english horn (MIRx with teldex )
- VSL brass (MIRx with teldex)
- VSL harp 1 ( tried the OT harp but somehow could't get the delicate sound I was after)
- VSL timpany rolls

- Earreverb 2: used 1 reverb on all instruments via Bus. Also no separate sections with separate reverb.
- VSS2: this I used only on BerlinWW and VSL woodwinds. But took out most of the ER levels.
I have tried LASS with VSS2 in the beginning but it doesn't sound good. This is where Hannes_F helped a great deal with pushing the strings back by the use of EQ. works wonderful.

I want to try some other classical pieces with f.e. more Brass as well, to get a variety of different pieces where maybe the settings and/or approach in this piece may need adjustment (at least that is what I expect) to have more options available.

@Ashermusic : thank you Jay also for your kind words. And see the above list for the tools & libraries used.

I hope one day to replace VSS2, but as I hear your responses now it is also in how you learn to use the tools you have to still get good results.
Encouraging!
 
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Very well done Silence, you make a strong case for Earreverb 2 and VSS2. Interesting that you use VSS2 alongside of Earreverb. Is there any particular reason you chose VSS2 for instrument positioning over Earreverb, which offers the same feature?
 
Fair question Muk, and one that I haven't yet considered.
Thinking now back at it: I have not yet dived into that positioning part of Earreverb2 because during my work on this Bizet composition I worked with VSS2 (and trying to get to grips with it) and I didn't want to throw away all my work yet. It takes some determination to keep going whilst you see the need to start again, or at least stop and take into a new direction. And again, Hannes-F's help was the turn around for me to head into a better sounding approach then I had do before.

So in hindsight I think this study on Bizet's piece is still a mixture of old and new approaches.

I will now look into Earreverb2's manual and see how to use the positioning side. What I know I do like about VSS2 is that you have this overview page of where you have put a specific instrument. I hope that Earreverb2 has similar ways, but I can't recall seeing them so far.



PS: reading my posts back it may seem like I am a promotor of Hannes_F. My mentioning of him is meant as a sign of gratitude and credit for his freely given help.

That is why I am equally grateful for your response!
 
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@Ashermusic : thank you Jay also for your kind words. And see the above list for the tools & libraries used.

I hope one day to replace VSS2, but as I hear your responses now it is also in how you learn to use the tools you have to still get good results.
Encouraging!

Well, you took libraries that I usually think that I don't care for and made them sound great to my ears. Again, further evidence that it is the guy more than the gear.
 
I hope one day to replace VSS2,
I've found much better results with EAReverb2 for positioning. I've replaced VSS2 with it myself.

What I know I do like about VSS2 is that you have this overview page of where you have put a specific instrument. I hope that Earreverb2 has similar ways, but I can't recall seeing them so far.
EAReverb2 has the POS panel where you can position the source around a stage. It does show the positions of all the other instances, but unfortunately, unlike VSS2, doesn't let you interact with them. That's one very nice feature of VSS2.
 
I've found much better results with EAReverb2 for positioning. I've replaced VSS2 with it myself.


EAReverb2 has the POS panel where you can position the source around a stage. It does show the positions of all the other instances, but unfortunately, unlike VSS2, doesn't let you interact with them. That's one very nice feature of VSS2.
Hi Tack,

Glad to hear you are also an EArreverb2 user. Most likely I will follow your path into leaving VSS2 behind. As good as it works, the sound alteration seems too much. Even though with BWW it seems to work good enough.
The EARreverb2 Pos panel is where I just had a look into. Seems simple enough but I want to get to know it well.
I presume you use it per section, and not per instrument like with VSS2. EARreverb2 is more taxing on CPU with multiple instances.(at least on mine)

@Ashermusic > it is good progress when I think that I am on the right track that other people with good ears hear similar results. So, mucho gracias!
 
I presume you use it per section, and not per instrument like with VSS2. EARreverb2 is more taxing on CPU with multiple instances.(at least on mine)
I actually use it per instrument. I haven't really had any issues with performance, although since most of my template is wet already, I really only have half a dozen instances running at a time.

If I was concerned about performance, I would disable the LR module on each instrument instance, and then send to a per-section instance for tails only (so the bus instance had the ER module disabled). In this way the routing would work more like the VSS approach.
 
Well done. Very nice. Now it's time for you to do your own compositions.

Hi Baron,

Thanks that you also had a listen!
As a practise to keep improving skills I will do a few more of these with a different setting. I was f.e. thinking of the beginning of Mussorgsky's Pictures at an Exhibition. But maybe that is a bit too ambitious, I don't know yet. But something more brass heavy to get that also in the right balance. Maybe the famous music from the movie 2001, also sprach zarathustra (far less ambitious :whistling:)

On the point of composing: I have already been creating various music, which is one of my greatest loves. But I have to say I am reluctant to put it (the orchestral works) up here in vi-control(for various reasons, although fear of bad reviews is not part of that). I have not yet made a decision. At first I'd rather keep it within a circle of people I have come to respect, like yourself and Muk f.e. before I put it out there for the public domain. (Assuming that is at all an option, because I also don't want take up any time from someone which usually you would get paid for. Like what Frederique Russ himself is offering on vi-control.)

But there are definitely some interesting pieces I am busy with (at least I think so), so I will consider that the coming time what to do with these compositions. The aim I have so far is to complete some of the best and put it on band camp or so at a point in time.

Anyhow, thanks again for taking a listen and now I go back to the composing/mock-up trenches!:grin:
 
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