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Best Solo Cello?

ism said:
SF certainly has lots of articulations. But it’s also fundamentally different in it’s sound and it’s design. Maybe the biggest different is the dynamics and the control of vibrato. TG has 1 layer with baked in vibrato. SF has 6 layers - 3 dynamics x 2 for non vib and vib.

Again, this is my go to noodle to represent this




And the point is that here you’re crafting the arcs across dynamics and vibrato. TG is smoother. But it has little control over dynamics or vibrato.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info @ism - in your noodle, are you pushing the Expression fader up & down here and there?

Generally speaking, I guess what I may be hearing is:

- dynamic layers: SF has them (... as usual; I have lots of SF libraries), whereas for Tina, I would potentially need to tack on some EQ to get less strident lower dynamics. Needless to say, if I wanted Tina to cut through in an orchestral mix, I would not be EQ-ing it down.

- vibrato: for SF it is either on or off; for Tina it grows, but that is baked in.

I imagine that I can mix/match Tina v1 (legato) with Tina v2 (artics) within a passage and they would blend imperceptibly ... which would give quite a bit of flexibility. [One thing with @Sears Poncho's example above, the Tina v2 cello seemed to have a less definitive stage position across all the notes .. in other words, for a few notes it seemed to switch its pan location]
 
BlackDorito said:
Thanks for the info @ism - in your noodle, are you pushing the Expression fader up & down here and there?

Generally speaking, I guess what I may be hearing is:

- dynamic layers: SF has them (... as usual; I have lots of SF libraries), whereas for Tina, I would potentially need to tack on some EQ to get less strident lower dynamics. Needless to say, if I wanted Tina to cut through in an orchestral mix, I would not be EQ-ing it down.

- vibrato: for SF it is either on or off; for Tina it grows, but that is baked in.

I imagine that I can mix/match Tina v1 (legato) with Tina v2 (artics) within a passage and they would blend imperceptibly ... which would give quite a bit of flexibility. [One thing with @Sears Poncho's example above, the Tina v2 cello seemed to have a less definitive stage position across all the notes .. in other words, for a few notes it seemed to switch its pan location]
Click to expand...


Well technically, all I’m doing in this passage is just moving the mod wheel. But I‘ve also written a little script that infers the vibrato from the dynamics (and tweaks cc11 a bit, but only quite subtly to smooth the transitions), as per this thread:

Spitfire Solo Strings: How I learned to stop worrying and love vibrato

So the short version here, is that after a lot of experimenting, and via a "performance vibrato" script that I've developed, I think I've finally managed to get my head around the vibrato in Spitfire solo strings. And found a way to make it much more playable 'out-of-the-box'. Here's my first...
vi-control.net vi-control.net


The Tina Guo (like the Blakus) by contrast, is already attempting to simulate dynamics with eq. Which for the most part drives me crazy. The saving grace is that there are dynamic arcs already baked into the samples, so you can alter the dynamics a bit with the mod wheel (and the eq this implies) so long as you’re only exaggerating the existing arcs, and not trying to craft dynamics that aren’t already there. But that’s about it. I just wouldn’t use the TG (vol 1 - I don’t have 2) for any line that doesn’t fit with the existing arcs. Or for anything in the p-mp range.

Whereas in my above SF noodle:




there are a great many note (ie individual notes, not just phrases) crafted across all three dynamic layers and the 2 vibrato layers, so are cross fading between 6 samples per note.

So there is a bumpiness you can hear all this crossfade. But what you get for this bumpiness is much better sound (a sampled p layer in the SF cello is infinitely better that the TG’s fake eq’d p layer) and the ability to craft your arcs across these dimensions.

In Sears Poncho’s above clip, the phrase is seemingly designed to be exactly the type of phrase that the TG is best at, and the SF phrase isn’t crafted nearly as much as it could be. So it’s a useful comparison of tone, but a limited comparison of the respective expressive spaces.


Sears Poncho said:
I attached a clip:

1. Spitfire
2. TIna 2 legato
3. Tina 1 legato
Click to expand...

So just to clarify this:

BlackDorito said:
the Spitfire seems to have vibrato 'on' while the Tina1 seems to have it organically growing .. a bit more realistic
Click to expand...

The progressive vibrato is baked into TG, but you need to add it you’re i the Spitfire cello. Either with the crossfade, as in the above noodle, or by using the progressive vibrato that ‘s now a part of the new performance patch (which wasn’t out when I noodled the above)

One final nuance - yes, the SF cello vibrato crossfade is either on or off. But it’s also different on each of the dynamic layers. So if you’re crafting your dynamics idiomatically, in practice you very often get a much smoother transition that you would think if you are just doing it statically.
 
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TigerTheFrog said:
No love for Bohemian Cello? No key switching on this video at all--just playing.

​
Click to expand...


Lots of love for the Bohemian. It is an utter joy to play.

It’s just that between the sound and minimal (by design) ability to craft your arcs, I’ve never been quite able to make it work in context, and always end up reaching for something else. Though it’s on my to do list to figure out how to make it work somewhere.
 
ism said:
One final nuance - yes, the SF cello vibrato crossfade is either on or off. But it’s also different on each of the dynamic layers. So if you’re crafting your dynamics idiomatically, in practice you very often get a much smoother transition that you would think if you are just doing it statically.
Click to expand...
It’s actually pretty remarkable how well the transition works once you get used to how the instrument works, especially in context. These days I rarely think about moving across the transition. You start to feel when the transition will sound natural, though I remember when I first got the instrument it often felt like a constant fight to tame the vibrato. (I recall a post, I think by you, entitled something like “how I learned to love vibrato...” or some such.) in any case in practice the on/off aspect of the vibrato proves only rarely to be a problem as moving back and forth across the boundary works far better than it has a right to.
 
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jbuhler said:
No, but you’re limited in other ways.
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The "classic" legato of volume one has some serious intonation problems and lots of quirks. It's still great and IMO the best sounding cello legato. Those slides have yet to be equaled.

I wish Cinesamples would repackage it: Have 1 and 2 together as one library, along with some of the original articulations in the "sound design" package. The original package has electric cello fiffs, Erhu, loops, phrases, drone builders etc but it also has 4 "normal" articulations. If CInesamples picked the best stuff, re-did a few things and put it all together are one keyswitchable program, I think they would have the best cello on the market.
 
I think a lot of people might not know that this even exists. It's the original Tina "sound design" library. At has an arpeggiator, all kinds of effects, a "chaos" button that is pretty cool. The rock riffs and phrases are really good. As for acoustic, there is a short in there that's very crisp. It's a big package.

tef.jpg
 
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Sears Poncho said:
The "classic" legato of volume one has some serious intonation problems and lots of quirks. It's still great and IMO the best sounding cello legato. Those slides have yet to be equaled.

I wish Cinesamples would repackage it: Have 1 and 2 together as one library, along with some of the original articulations in the "sound design" package. The original package has electric cello fiffs, Erhu, loops, phrases, drone builders etc but it also has 4 "normal" articulations. If CInesamples picked the best stuff, re-did a few things and put it all together are one keyswitchable program, I think they would have the best cello on the market.
Click to expand...
I have no issue with the library, it seems well designed for what it aims to do, and many have used it to excellent effect. It’s just as @ism points out it’s optimized for certain things and that optimization gets in the way of doing other things.
 
jbuhler said:
I have no issue with the library, it seems well designed for what it aims to do, and many have used it to excellent effect. It’s just as @ism points out it’s optimized for certain things and that optimization gets in the way of doing other things.
Click to expand...
Agreed. That's why I wish Cinesamples would go back, clean things up, fix some weird stuff and repackage it along with 2 as one complete cello.
 
Well in the end I went on pure instinct - which told me I already have too many Spitfire libraries - and I went with the Tina Guo v1 + v2 bundle. I will download and start noodling next week when I return from a business trip. Pretty sure I'm going to have fun with it.
 
VgsA said:
As with other cello threads, I'm leaving here my official demo for Emotional Cello, I honestly think I wouldn't be able to pull this one off with any other virtual cello. But definitely, different tracks demand different cellos, at least IMO.
Click to expand...

This cello is the one that best fits my usual style of thinking and playing, although all of the ones mentioned have unique character and some real strengths. It also has much in common with the Emotional Violin, which I love to play. For fast passages, I find the VSL solo cello very useful, albeit an older library. The VSL solo viola is no slouch either. We need 'em all!
 
VSL remains my top choice for the solo strings; my favourite part of the library alongside the woodwinds (and some of the percussion). I was surprised to see that it hasn't been SYNCHRON-ized, and mean to check out Dimension Strings (which I own) in more detail this weekend to see if it is also intended for featured solo parts (i.e. concerto-context or sonata).

The Emotional series almost got bought a few times, but there were some key missing features that always made me hesitate. I forget whether they got an update or not. I should give them another look. But I definitely find VSL Solo Strings to be surprisingly versatile across all genres; I didn't expect that.
 
keepitsimple said:
Call me "unsophisticated" but i love the first and second chair cellos in LASS.
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I was just going to post the same thing. I had kind of forgotten about the LASS 1st Chair, but I was listening to an old track I did several years ago and was blown away by the solo cello. I dug out the project to see what it was and couldn't believe it. It's really a magical little patch.
 
Rv5 said:
Throwing forward my own offering: https://www.waverunneraudio.com/shop/alder-cello/ (The Alder Cello), something a little different.

We will update this library with legato one day. Spicc and Pizz to be added soon... Plus, for every sale, we plant a tree.
Click to expand...

Any news for the "legato"? Bought the Alder Violin last night and love it :)
 
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It's good to hear The Alder Cello mentioned by someone familiar with it. I was curious when I saw it announced, but had too many things on my plate, and other priorities, to even bother listening to the demos yet, as it's not a vendor that I knew about previously. But now it sounds like I should keep them on my radar.
 
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