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Berlin Brass, Strings, Winds...on 32 GB RAM?

PhilipJohnston

Orchestration Recipes
Berlin Brass, Winds and Strings on a 2013 i7 iMac with 32GB RAM...is it futile? Or is it possible, as long as I'm smart about only including in the template articulations I'm most commonly going to use?

If that's the approach I take, just how limited is that articulation list likely to be?

(Just checking that my "orchestra" won't consist of clarinet, viola pizzicato and tuba before smoke starts coming out of the machine)
 
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You need at least 64, more like 100 for comfort.

Developers are not that different... RAM impact is a simple multiplication of

1. How many Kontakt instruments
2. How many mics
3. How many articulations
4. How deep-sampled is each articulation (round robins for staccatos, true sampled legato etc adds to the impact)
5. Range of the instrument (horn > trumpet and so on)

With the Berlin Series, 1 and 2 are taken to an extreme unmatched by any other developer... currently. No other developer has a brass library with six microphones sampling 11 individually played brass instruments. Loading a decent brass template with all 6 mics armed is something like 110 gigabytes all by itself. Of course you can just write using the tree mic and use roundabout 20GB (again, just the brass). The string and woodwind libraries are older, and lower impact mostly because they have fewer microphones.
 
To add: although I truly admire the audacity of its design goal, I have trouble seeing how any composer could use Berlin Brass in a workaday template context. It can be made to sound great but that requires 3x or 4x the work of other brass libraries. Address that further here and here. Adventure Brass is a very good post-Hollywood-Series alternative or you could wait for Cinematic Studio Brass.
 
Totally agree with &NoamL.. both posts.
Have all OT main libraries plus many expansions, except Percussion.. CANNOT do it with less than 96GB, 128GB RECOMMENDED for orchestral work. Their MAIN goal should now be instead of releasing anything is to fix their CAPSULE, and if they can't do it release a "light" version whith less features.
 
Berlin Brass user here, and I'm working on a laptop with 24gB of RAM. Yes, I like to suffer.
When composing, I just use the Tree mics, and load the others when I'm done, and freeze each track.

The full Berlin Brass, with all single articulations loaded, and with the 3 solo Trumpets + Ensemble, the 4 solo Horns + Ensemble, the 3 solo Trombones + Ensemble, & the Tuba... Takes 9,5gB of RAM on my system. Fully purged. Not a single sample loaded :)

So, there are solutions. But it takes an awful lot of time. I'm constantly freezing/defreezing tracks, loading mics... As @NoamL says, Berlin Brass already requires a lot of time in the beginning, but with all these manipulations it's a living hell. I'm wouldn't be able to do this if I was a full time working composer with time constraints.
 
NoamL, C-Wave, white wasteland - many thanks, I really appreciate your input.
Wondering if the calculation changes if I was using one of the new i7 iMacs with 64GB RAM, and either

A) Only using OT Strings and Woodwinds (because they're somewhat easier on RAM, yes?), with a different brass library.

OR

B) Using OT Strings, Woodwinds and Brass, but only including most commonly used articulations in the template, and a few mike positions.
I'm currently using OT Woodwinds as part of my orchestral template (it's the one OT library I have, and I love it) by loading multis of each instrument with around 6-8 frequently used articulations loaded into each to switch between. If I need more exotic articulations, I load them on an as-needed basis; whole thing seems to use around 7GB at the moment. Not sure if it makes any difference, but I'm running all samples from SSDs in a BlackMagic multidock.
Easiest fix is obviously dialling up the RAM, but Macs with 128 GB RAM are not easy to come by, is all (I know, I know, but I don't want to go back to PC...it was an unhappy separation...)

With thanks. I'm new to VI Forums, loving how much I'm learning here.
 
NoamL, C-Wave, white wasteland - many thanks, I really appreciate your input.
Wondering if the calculation changes if I was using one of the new i7 iMacs with 64GB RAM, and either

A) Only using OT Strings and Woodwinds (because they're somewhat easier on RAM, yes?), with a different brass library.

OR

B) Using OT Strings, Woodwinds and Brass, but only including most commonly used articulations in the template, and a few mike positions.
I'm currently using OT Woodwinds as part of my orchestral template (it's the one OT library I have, and I love it) by loading multis of each instrument with around 6-8 frequently used articulations loaded into each to switch between. If I need more exotic articulations, I load them on an as-needed basis; whole thing seems to use around 7GB at the moment. Not sure if it makes any difference, but I'm running all samples from SSDs in a BlackMagic multidock.
Easiest fix is obviously dialling up the RAM, but Macs with 128 GB RAM are not easy to come by, is all (I know, I know, but I don't want to go back to PC...it was an unhappy separation...)

With thanks. I'm new to VI Forums, loving how much I'm learning here.
Answering:
A) yes.. easier than Brass on Ram. (But that is as far as the samples go.. CAPSULE IS CAPSULE! It's a memory hog everywhere). And never come close to their first chairs exp... lots of recording mistakes there.
B) Not just the articulations but use only one mic.. and of course SSD 's have one purpose only which is loading sample libraries faster. But if you have fast SSD's, for example 4 of them stripes as raid 0, then you might afford to lower the Kontakt buffer from 60k, this will save the amount of ram required by Every Kontakt library including OT's at the expense of loading them slower.. much slower.. but again if you have fast SSD's it becomes a little more reasonable trade off.
 
Actually, I've been trying something a bit different this afternoon.

Instead of using all Single Articulation patches, I'm using just the Legato Patch, then a Multi with almost every articulation loaded (in the exception of the Repetition Articulations who are Time Machine based and really RAM hungry). The loading time for each instrument seems faster with this option.

I am also trying to keep the six mics enabled instead of just the Tree, but with everything purged. In my experience, the fact to purge samples tremendously reduces the RAM usage, so one mic or six probably won't have too much difference. Of course, that only applies when Kontakt buffer is set at a very low position. What is really a memory hog is Capsule, not the samples themselves.

Time will tell !
 
Actually, I've been trying something a bit different this afternoon.

Instead of using all Single Articulation patches, I'm using just the Legato Patch, then a Multi with almost every articulation loaded (in the exception of the Repetition Articulations who are Time Machine based and really RAM hungry). The loading time for each instrument seems faster with this option.

I am also trying to keep the six mics enabled instead of just the Tree, but with everything purged. In my experience, the fact to purge samples tremendously reduces the RAM usage, so one mic or six probably won't have too much difference. Of course, that only applies when Kontakt buffer is set at a very low position. What is really a memory hog is Capsule, not the samples themselves.

Time will tell !
I have done almost the same thing: 64GB ram (planning on increasing it on Black Friday hopefully if I still have any money left) using only multis with just the close mics, everything purged, setup in Vienna instruments pro with Mir Pro WITH Teldex (roompack 2). I have two and am currently selling one of them. This way i don't need the other mics and I can integrate them with other libraries from other manufacturers including VSL.
The high memory requirement of capsule itself comes from the way it was scripted (somehow other Kontakt manufacturers managed about 40% less with their very sophisticated orchestral libraries) regardless of the samples used.
 
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Well, it might be work well. I have 32 Gigs of RAM and Berlin Brass by itself (purged) was taking up around 8-9 gb of RAM (sometimes 12 gb if something weird with my computer is happening at that moment). The brass couldn't be used with my current template which is a mix of pretty much everything. CAPSULE can be pretty heavy on RAM even with everything purged. BWW isn't as RAM heavy as the Brass but again, it uses CAPSULE so you have to consider that too. I'd suggest just using the Ensemble patches for the Brass and if you need to sparse out to the sections, delete/add instances as needed.
 
You will find there are two trains of thought regarding workflows on this forum. One group likes having everything loaded and ready at a click of the track's notice (e.g. Slave setups with large amounts of ram) and have various audio output setups (e.g. Print to a ProTools rig, mixing consoles in a studio to handle slave outputs, etc.). The other has figured out how to use a single in-the-box solution via disabled/freeze track templates with great efficiency on "lesser setups" and would choose this path even if resources were not an issue. It is really a workflow preference thing.

If you work on specific instruments or specific sections at a time (as most users do), 32GB is certainly enough with a disabled template. You can have a 1000+ track template loaded and just "activate" each track before using, then deactivate/freeze it afterwards. I'd say 64GB is more comfortable with a disabled template (when desiring to have all of the tracks simultaneously activated in a ram heavy section like Berlin Brass... Alternatively, BWW only requires 12GB though), but you will find some astounding musicians/composers here who use 16Gb machines and create music as good as those with massive slave setups.

Footnote: Be sure to understand your DAW's capabilities and limitations regarding disabled tracks. Each DAW handles it a little differently with greater/lesser efficiencies than the next.
 
Again, many thanks for all the feedback.

Just received this reply from Orchestral Tools (they've been very quick in responding to my questions so far)—thoughts?

===========

Hi!

Yes, 64 GB will absolutely be ok!
When people mention the Ram usage, they refer to loading the full collections in a large template, possibly with multiple mic positions.
By the way consider getting a PC instead of a new Mac. You'll get a big performance boost, more efficient ram usage and you'll save a lot of money.
I "only" have 64 GB and use all our stuff just fine :)

If you use the multis, you can load _all_ multis on 64 GB Ram. Easily, actually.
Though you will need to purge, there simply is no other way. Wirthout purging even 128 GB would not be enough... a single legato patch can use 5 GB of memory. But you would NEVER use all these samples in a project, so it is absolutely pointless to not purge.

best

Tobias
OT Support

============

Two big purchases hang on this - (1) the sample library, and (2) a computer (I'm much more comfortable with Mac, but would have to wait for an iMac Pro or the new Mac Pro if I need 128GB, current iMac only does 64GB), so advice really does help!
 
The full Berlin Brass, with all single articulations loaded, and with the 3 solo Trumpets + Ensemble, the 4 solo Horns + Ensemble, the 3 solo Trombones + Ensemble, & the Tuba... Takes 9,5gB of RAM on my system. Fully purged. Not a single sample loaded
Do I understand this right:
Just the Kontakt script needs 9.5GB without a single sample?
 
Do I understand this right:
Just the Kontakt script needs 9.5GB without a single sample?

In a word, yes. With all single articulations loaded, so about 15 per instrument. One Kontakt instance per instrument. And 14 instruments (counting the Ensembles).
 
You will be ok with 32GB of RAM if you purge all samples in Kontakt. I do run the entire Berlin orchestra and it works but only because I purge everything. If not, 32GB won't be enough sorry.
 
I know this is an old thread but I had to double take at some of these responses.....yikes.
Manage. Your. RAM.
It's incredibly easy, and 32 GB will be not only enough, but more than enough if you are mindful of what your project entails.
Have multiple templates for different loads/sets ready to roll, and you can have whatever you need without loading
every single articulation (which let's face it, we all know no one here is using every art and instrument in existence for the average track.

With better management, you can save your money and space for more instruments/gear rather than worrying about getting....128 of RAM.

Sources: 32GB PC easily runs multi orchestra templates with no issue, have different templates for whatever I need ect.
 
You will find there are two trains of thought regarding workflows on this forum. One group likes having everything loaded and ready at a click of the track's notice (e.g. Slave setups with large amounts of ram) and have various audio output setups (e.g. Print to a ProTools rig, mixing consoles in a studio to handle slave outputs, etc.). The other has figured out how to use a single in-the-box solution via disabled/freeze track templates with great efficiency on "lesser setups" and would choose this path even if resources were not an issue. It is really a workflow preference thing.

If you work on specific instruments or specific sections at a time (as most users do), 32GB is certainly enough with a disabled template. You can have a 1000+ track template loaded and just "activate" each track before using, then deactivate/freeze it afterwards. I'd say 64GB is more comfortable with a disabled template (when desiring to have all of the tracks simultaneously activated in a ram heavy section like Berlin Brass... Alternatively, BWW only requires 12GB though), but you will find some astounding musicians/composers here who use 16Gb machines and create music as good as those with massive slave setups.

Footnote: Be sure to understand your DAW's capabilities and limitations regarding disabled tracks. Each DAW handles it a little differently with greater/lesser efficiencies than the next.
I for one would love to learn more about these fabled "massive slave setups". Can anyone point me to some resources on how i'd make one? What are the basic components necessary? Do they require VSL Vienna Ensemble or does that only work with VSL and not Kontakt? Are there alternatives to Vienna Ensemble for a slave setup to host all my VST's? I'm running 16gb and have tons of dropouts on just legato strings patches. Its really frustrating.

Also, when someone says just load what you need, what if you are keyswtiching between many arts in most passages? As is done in modern classical music. When you purge everything else do you need to record the unpurged tracks that can fit in the RAM without dropouts to wave files one at a time, and then freeze all the other tracks so they don't mess up the wave file, then do the same with each track by committing midi tracks to audio one at a time?
 
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