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APD/SL *** Drama Spinoff

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thereus

Active Member
I seem to have drawn some fire from some quarters. Ho hum...

There is no witch hunt. There is just a simple enquiry about potential astroturfing. Mike Greene is looking at it so there is no need for further back and forth. Some may not be concerned about that subject and that's fine. Others are and that's fine too.
 

jtnyc

Senior Member
If fleer had answered from the beginning, no I haven't received free products and I'm in no way affiliated with Sample Logic or APD, it would have died right down, but he didn't. He gave roundabout answers and got very snarky and defensive. Things escalated form there. Same with Joe from Sample Logic. Instead of just stating that fleer was in no way affiliated with Sample Logic of APD, he said things like toxic, negative energy, unfair to developers, calling members out by name and calling them sockpuppets. He attacked the people raising the question instead of just addressing the actual question. To me these kind of reactions don't scream of innocence. I'm not saying either one of them are guilty, but I don't know, why not just clearly state one way or the other.

Mike seems to be a very fair person from what I can see. Points 2 and 3 that he made are really the crux of why this thing got out of control. Point #5 asking fleer not to post unless it's important/relevant, well that doesn't seem fair to me. I mean if there is evidence of shilling then just ban him. If there's not, then let him be. Over the past few years many times, it did look like shilling to me. I'm not troll and I don't own any pitchforks, but when I saw him avoiding the question over and over, and dancing around a direct answer, I chimed in and pointed that out as many others did. He didn't like that and continued for some time to double down and not answer, so there you have it. Now that he has clearly stated that he isn't affiliated and has not received free products, that's that.
 
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Mike Greene

Senior Member
Moderator
Is this the kind of stuff that goes on here? Hell, people here get free products and post crazy review videos saying it's the greatest thing ever regardless of quality because they got it free. Libraries are released with all kinds of sloppiness or phase issues and half of you members, including reviewers, cream yourselves pushing them so either half of you are shills or your ears are worth sh!t. And you're gonna waste time doing a witch hunt on a single person while ignoring all the other bullsh!t that goes on here?

Hell, thereus, if you have this much free time get a puppy. Or work at getting good enough at music that you can get some work so you don't have enough free time for useless crap like this.

Hell, even the solutions are a mess - telling people to refrain from posting about certain companies. Damn, I thought I'd never find a forum that's more of a sh!tshow than GS.
Seriously? You decide now is a good time to be a dick?

As I've said many times before, learn to read a room. In my earlier post, did I sound like I'm the mood for more drama? I seriously don't have time or patience right now for this, so you're banned. Send me an email in 30 days if you'd like to return, although based on your previous posts where you delight in criticizing this forum, you might want to consider that maybe this isn't the place for you.
 

jtnyc

Senior Member
Maybe not, but let me ask you this - how much time should I be expected to spend on this? I’m already about 7 or 8 hours into this. 7 or 8 hours of my time totally wasted. Does THAT sound fair to you?
No, it's not fair at all. I can see it's a very sticky situation for you. Maybe just let it go. He said he was changing his handle, so there's not much you can do about how he chooses to post anyway. He's still referring to anyone who questioned him as trolls and just doesn't seem to want to even try and understand why his and SL responses made it all look so suspect in the first place, so that again is informing.

I'd let it go for now and go enjoy some time away from here -
 

dzilizzi

I just hang around pretending I know something
Okay, you got me.

I admit I paid R***** a lot of money to focus attention on my post "How to Transform Toilet Paper Into Music." I was able to do that because of the fortune I got for that placement from my client, Mr. Whipple.
LOL! You realize your post may have been the only one without R***** posting?

Now I want to know...how do you transform toilet paper into music???? I can see using the tubes for percussion, but the paper is a little too quiet for me.
 

jtnyc

Senior Member
@Mike Greene I am genuinely disappointed in your latest response...


We have had a multitude of emails back and forth privately discussing what I thought has been resolved years ago. We have had a friendly business relationship to the point that we have offered up deals with Realitone and are stillselling your products on APD shop to date as well as support the Vi-control community through and through as we truly appreciate VI-control and what it stands for. I hope we can maintain this friendship and do not understand why you are dragging all of this into a public forum.


I do not understand your desires in setting an example for your fellow VI-controllers by trying to agitate and create a three-ring circus on a music creation forum regarding issues I thought we have resolved years ago. If you have pent up issues towards me or my companies why haven't you emailed me about this recently to resolve it?


Shouldn't you of all people be above doing this sort of post as the leader? I expect more and am truly disappointed. Please reach out to me in email if you have matters that need to be settled further.


To tell VI-control members that you might get penalized if you respond in forum threads made by SL or APD ... well... really? Isn't that an invasion of freedom of speech and really against all of what this forum was created for? I honestly feel bad for Fleer in the end of all this as you pretty much destroyed his character and the spirit and joy he has brought to this forum/community. Many members have chimed in saying he is a ray of light and brings delight to the forum. In fact, Fleer please do reach out to me privately I want to send you some free Sample Logic products as I know it does not make up for this, but I feel for you man and I am sorry it has come to this shit show.


Mike, since you feel the need to bring your biased non-factual allegations into the public forum (in hopes to create some sort of mob?), in which as the leader you are apparently trying to turn into a childish three-ring circus of drama and controversy using your power as a podium. Here are my efforts for what they are worth to resolve the wrong image you are projecting to fellow vi-controllers. I would like to set the record straight on the private allegations in which the leader of VI-Control Mike feels the need to use VI-control to instigate matters.


Regarding this whole rumour about somehow Sample Logic or APD hacked the member database and is in possession of all VI-Control members...

When Fredrick Russ was head of VI-Control, he offered an advertising tier for developers where you could purchase a mass mail package, and he would mass email all opt-in subscribers with the marketing message provided by the develoePrs. I bought a bulk package for the year which he still owed me for and during the transitional period years ago when Mike gained the keys to the castle, Frederick was still making good on the remaining ads purchased during Mike’s transitional period. Please again check with Frederick AGAIN and he will confirm all of this AGAIN. You even told me you have sleeper secret VI email addresses years ago at this time that we're getting the mass emails at this time and we walked through, and you dealt with Frederick and confirmed yes he was fulfilling the remaining mailings for us. If we were in custody of every member and were illegally using this magical list would not your sleeper emails be receiving mass emails on our current mailings? This is not the case. I have heard of VI control members in previous iterations when you have made this allegation public, that they in fact never received APD or SL mailings completely verifying the falsehood of all this. Please if there are any VI-control members not subscribed to APD or SL newsletter can you confirm this to Mike so he can sleep easier at night that you are not receiving mass emails from us?


Regarding the Black Friday SMS blast we did. We thought hey there is a company called Twilio that can broadcast a mass SMS of coupons to heighten the Black Friday Campaign. it is Black Friday lets try sending coupon codes through SMS to our customer's database and boy were we dead wrong. It was seriously the biggest mistake in our companies history and we truly paid for it. In delivery, it was a disaster. If you go back through APD postings during Black Friday, you will see we sincerely apologized for this significant mistake on our part. For what it is worth, we are taking GDPR and customers privacy very seriously, and again we apologize for this mistake. I assure you we will never do a SMS blast again. And Mike again if it makes you feel better, I am sincerely sorry that this happened and I am willing to tell the world, again and again, we are sorry for this.

Again, Mike, if you are still unresolved rather then using VI-control as you podium why not try emailing me? Please honestly I mean no disrespect for Vi-control and really enjoy being a part of this community so I really want to resolve whatever you feel needs resolving with you directly. Please email me.


I also hope you will consider taking it back regarding your telling folks not to talk in SL and APD commercial and deal threads. What is the point of hosting a forum if you are dictating rules like this?

Sorry for the lengthy reply, I stayed up way past my bedtime writing this and I hope tomorrow is a better day in VI-control
Man, you are unbelievable. You wrote.
"I do not understand your desires in setting an example for your fellow VI-controllers by trying to agitate and create a three-ring circus"
The reason it became a circus is because fleer and yourself avoided the question at hand initially and just attacked anyone who raised the question, but now you want to blame it on Mike. Nonsense.

"Shouldn't you of all people be above doing this sort of post as the leader?
You question Mikes leadership when there are credible issues being raised while the person being questioned not only refused to address it, but behaved in a way that made the whole thing seem even more suspicious. It's really simple, if your accused of something and you didn't do it, you just come right out and say so. This point seems to be falling on deaf ears with the both of you. Fleer's stubborn attitude and snarky responses is what prolonged the entire thing, as did your first post. Then you tell Mike "you expect more". Incredible. And speaking of leadership, you are the head of a company and you come here and start calling out members by name and hurl childish insults at them? You define a few people who questioned fleer as a mob? You accuse Mike of trying to create a mob? You call people sock puppets? Shouldn't you be above that kind of behavior as the head of a company?
 

Polkasound

Senior Member
To tell VI-control members that you might get penalized if you respond in forum threads made by SL or APD ... well... really? Isn't that an invasion of freedom of speech and really against all of what this forum was created for?
Mike simply asked Fleer not to comment on SL and APD threads. It was a request designed to solve a problem. It's like when the police show up to a report of domestic violence -- if they don't find any evidence of violence, they'll still ask one of the parties to leave as a means of deterring the potential recurrence of DV being reported.

I also hope you will consider taking it back regarding your telling folks not to talk in SL and APD commercial and deal threads. What is the point of hosting a forum if you are dictating rules like this?
It was not directed to everyone, but only to one member, and possibly a couple more members pending some investigative work.

As a former forum administrator, I can tell you that most rules are not needed for 99% of a forum's membership. They're only needed for the 1% who push buttons or toe the line and get reported by the other 99%. If not kept in check, that 1% will drive the other 99% away, and that's why forums need owners who will take action when it's necessary. Such action may come across as dictatorial at times, but that's only because the 1% requires it to be.

I think Mike was being very equable in asking Fleer to refrain from the enthusiastic APD/SL posting. If Fleer chooses not to comply and reports of suspected shilling keep coming in, Mike reserves the right to investigate and do what is necessary to protect the integrity of this forum.

If Fleer is not a shill as he states, then yeah, it would suck to be asked to restrain one's posting of specific subject matter. But Fleer is also an intelligent adult -- I'm sure he can view the situation from other perspectives and understand why Mike made the request.
 

Sample logic

Active Member
You guys are right it is silly to fuel this thread any further. In the efforts of not driving Mike insane I have deleted my posts. Mike, I would not want to be in your shoes sometimes. I admire you for dealing with all this responsibility to keep the lights on here and I don’t want to cause you any more tension then has already been generated. Thank you for taking this forum on and making Vi control a community.
 
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Mike Greene

Senior Member
Moderator

Mike Greene

Senior Member
Moderator
...during the transitional period years ago when Mike gained the keys to the castle, Frederick was still making good on the remaining ads purchased during Mike’s transitional period.
I would be all for making peace and ending the drama here, but I can't let that above quote go unchallenged. So, just to be clear, you're saying it was Frederick who sent out this email?
https://mailchi.mp/audioplugin.deals/gospel-musicians-lto-131905?e=160a38436b
Hi Mike,
Please feel free to contact me via email.

Best,
We tried that couple years ago, but I never got a straight answer, so I'm not doing that again. More importantly, this is of concern to the membership here (whether or not their email addresses were used against their wishes) and it's relevant to the topic at hand, so I think they are entitled to an answer as well.

Mind you, I may very well be wrong about my suspicions in this, so I hope you believe I'm not trying to be a jerk. I'm just trying to clear this up, which will hopefully be to your benefit. If my suspicions are wrong, I will humbly (and happily) apologize for that here in this thread, or in a new thread if you prefer. Your call.

So I ask this very simple question once again - You're saying it was Frederick who sent out this email?
https://mailchi.mp/audioplugin.deals/gospel-musicians-lto-131905?e=160a38436b
 

normangladworth

New Member
I mean, I thought it was well known that Frederick sold Joe the VI-C mailing list just before selling to Mike. Many people have commented on it before. I was one person who had a unique email for VI-C which was literally only used for VI-C (has vi-c in the name, ie. [email protected]) which suddenly began getting Sample Logic AND APD spam.
 

rrichard63

Perpetual Novice
it's each person's responsibility to not make themselves look suspicious. Personally, I doubt Fleer is a shill, but ... with all the posts here and elsewhere (you gotta admit, it's a lot), he sure looks like one. Plus the defensive, seemingly question-evading posts in this thread didn't help matters. Again, my personally opinion is he's sincere, but I don't think anyone can blamed for thinking there might be fire behind the smoke.
Very well said, Mike. It looks to me as if Fleer's enthusiastic attitude was making it difficult for him to respond in plain language. Eventually he did, though:
... I don’t accept rewards or compensation. Also, I don’t know any of the guys from VSTBuzz or APD personally, but I do appreciate these two companies for listing some of the best deals I’ve come across on a regular basis. In fact I don’t know anybody in this business personally.
 
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