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APD/SL *** Drama Spinoff

Jimmy Hellfire

Senior Member
Jeez. What is this about exactly? It almost seems like a witch hunt.

For some reason, apparently a guy who may or may not be a "shill" got singled out and is now expected to justify himself repeatedly over the course of several days until some kind of public rage is satisfied ... what good does that do?

Who even cares if someone is "covert advertising" for a company or not? Aren't we all grown people, personally responsible for our choices and decision making, certainly interested in making informed purchases that hopefully won't depend on a single excited forum post by one particular person? Genuinely don't get the fuss.
 

chillbot

Sock Muppet
Chill, you could be my shill :grin:
You know what, I should be a shill. I always recommend Triple Spiral Audio to everyone. Gimme free stuff!

Thinking about it, I shill for a lot of companies. Here's a few things I've said recently:

Midissonance is excellent, just about my favorite.
I've already put Taiko Creator #1 on my list in the "best purchase of 2018" thread.
Taiko Creator has the same sound but a hundred times better.
Botdog Samples Lali Drums are the best lali drums by a god damn mile. (ok I never said this.)
Impact Soundwork's Shou Drum is a staple for me and at an amazing price.
Shou Drum is one of my favorites ever and well worth the price.
Just picked up Fluid Strike and it's incredible I'm already using it everywhere.
Mosaic Keys is really useful and just "fits in" really well.

If you have good stuff I will shill for you, no cost. I guess I have a bit of "Fleer" in me too.

Joe, I think you don't care for me because I called out Rhythmology as recycling old material when it was hailed as all new material...? Well, I will just say this. Sample Logic used to be on my insta-buy list, I literally bought your products without listening to a demo or walkthrough. I don't do that for a lot of companies but I always knew with Sample Logic it would be good and I would use it. If you were to look up my purchase history you'd see I bought almost every single one of your products the day it came out, or pre-ordered. Morphestra is one of the few libraries that I would actually call legit "groundbreaking" along with Omni, Stylus, Damage, Evolve. That is crazy high praise from me. It changed the *sound* of production music the same way those others did.

So that's the good part of it. I don't really want to get into the bad part of it much (with specific libraries) but it seems that somewhere along the way the company changed from putting out amazing libraries to looking to make a quick buck and recycling old material and promo promo promo and my inbox is inundated with emails every release, or "re-release" of the same material repackaged as "retwisted!". I can guess what you will say about this publicly but I still wonder if you don't personally see some truth to what I'm saying.

Hey sorry for piling on! Kick em while they're down, I say!
 

TigerTheFrog

Amphibiousician
This thread has made me nauseous. :sad: I will think twice about saying anything nice about a library I love here.

I like deals and announcements of upgrades and new products. I figure at least some other people do too. So posting them is one of the things I do a lot of. Last November, I posted all the deals from every developer I could find out about. So I am guessing that some people on this thread think I am a secret shill for all the developers in existence. That would be a very understandable thing to believe seeing how I am a film publicist.


Full disclosure: I have had two phone calls where I gave free marketing advice to people I admire: John Lehmkuhl (The Plugin Guru) and Kyle Z of In Session Audio. They found what I told them useful and so they gave me some stuff. I don't remember plugging Kyle here, but I did say a lot of nice stuff about John before I spoke to him, because I was a superfan. I stopped writing about John after that. I had no working relationship with either one of them after those single calls.

As I do have 30 years as a marketer that I feel could be of help to some developers, I may contact others. (I am in touch with somebody now.) But I am chastened by this thread and promise I will always mention my connection to any developer. However, it's probably better for me to not post about any developer I've spoken to outside of normal customer service.
 
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thereus

Active Member
Joe,

It's @mikegreene who wears the pointy badge around here so, I am happy to say, the investigation is all his.

Decisions about trust are for every member.

Thereus
 

Geoff Grace

Senior Member
This thread has made me nauseous. :sad: I will think twice about saying anything nice about a library I love here.
I hope that you'll continue to be yourself. We can't let negativity rule the day.

This thread is too reminiscent of McCarthyism for my taste.

Fleer, I enjoy your enthusiasm. Sometimes I agree with you, and sometimes I don't; but I always appreciate a positive attitude—especially on the Internet where people too often feel free to unleash their inner demons.

I know this is easier said than done, but you may wish to heed this Internet 101 advice:

Please don't feed the trolls.

Best,

Geoff
 

TigerTheFrog

Amphibiousician
For the record, I see Fleer's posts all the time on the Cakewalk Deals Forum and he is just as enthusiastic and positive about countless things there as he is here. He's a friendly voice. I've never felt for a second that he had any hidden agenda.

And he's not just a cheerleader for everything. Like myself, and many of you, he debates what he should buy or not buy.
 

MartinH.

Senior Member
If you have good stuff I will shill for you, no cost. I guess I have a bit of "Fleer" in me too.
Chillbot? More like Shillbot, am I right?
Just kidding of course! I hadn't read half the thread and was quite puzzled to see you called out for I don't really know what.

What a useless witch hunt.
I had written a post about how in this day and age an enthusiastic fan can sometimes be quite damaging, but ultimately decided it's pointless to engage. I really just posted now to make a stupid pun, I just can't resist...
 

elpedro

Active Member
I love how protective of our forum people are, it’s a great space. I don’t love it when the pitchforks and torches come out though.......
 

lp59burst

I'm just a "hobbyist"...
Wow, this went sideways fast... is it any wonder why so many of the leading developers don't post here anymore? :cautious: :confused:
 
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Mike Greene

Senior Member
Moderator
There are a number of issues I should address:

1. No one (aside from people I'll get to in a minute) should start posting "I have received free products" disclaimers. That's annoying. Also, no one should stop writing complimentary posts. Almost everyone on the forum is genuinely here to help each other in the true spirit of "Musicians helping musicians," so I don't want to create an environment of suspicion. So everybody keep doing what you're already doing.

2. With that said, it's each person's responsibility to not make themselves look suspicious. Personally, I doubt Fleer is a shill, but ... with all the posts here and elsewhere (you gotta admit, it's a lot), he sure looks like one. Plus the defensive, seemingly question-evading posts in this thread didn't help matters. Again, my personally opinion is he's sincere, but I don't think anyone can blamed for thinking there might be fire behind the smoke.

3. Sample Logic and APD don't help their own cases with some of their previous actions. Most developers have an automatic presumption of innocence. We see from past behavior what the personalities of various companies are, and I don't think anyone would ever doubt the integrity of Embertone or SonicCouture or countless other developers here.

APD and SL, however, have a done a few things to raise eyebrows. There was the ... well, lets just say "mysterious" case where "somehow" promotional emails for both SL and APD were sent to the VI-Control mailing list. (I'm still angry about this and no, Joe, this is most certainly not resolved.) There was also the case a few months ago where APD (or SL?) sent unwanted text messages to people. It's understandable that people might be pissed off about this sort of thing.

So, unlike with other companies, it's understandable that people might be inclined to give SL and ADP less benefit of the doubt about something that looks like a shill. Again, I'm not saying anything happening here is unethical, but the appearance is certainly there.

4. We, as moderators, do very much care about whether shills are involved, as well as more ordinary cases of excessive thread bumping. You might be surprised how often we get involved in cases of each. The Latest Posts feed is IMO sacred, and should not be unnecessarily filled with non-organic posts.

5. I don't have a perfect solution to this, but for now at least, here's the plan - I'm going to ask that Fleer (and possibly a couple others when I get a chance to look into this deeper) refrain from posting in APD or SL threads, unless the post is genuinely important. Is that fair? Possibly not, but it's also not fair that I (as well as the other moderators) have to keep devoting time to this.

6. To that end, I don't consider it my responsibility to teach self-awareness. It's up to members, as well as companies, to take a look at their own actions and be aware of how those actions will be perceived.
 

Polkasound

Senior Member
I am no shill and I don’t accept rewards or compensation. Also, I don’t know any of the guys from VSTBuzz or APD personally, but I do appreciate these two companies for listing some of the best deals I’ve come across on a regular basis... I just love deals and post whenever I see one that interests me...

So I reiterate: no rewards, no compensation...

Again, no rewards or compensation.
Fleer stated his position very clearly here. What it's come down to is whether or not we're willing to take him at his word.

Fleer's posting across forums comes across as shilly because musicians typically get excited over sales of products of interest, not whatever vendors happen to be offering. I have bought from both APD and VSTBuzz before, and I've enjoyed the deep discounts, but like most musicians, I'm only interested in the products they sell that I need or want, which is, at best, about 10% of the products they offer throughout the year.

That said, we may need to consider that Fleer is an authentic, GAS-fueled sales junkie. Whereas composing music with VI libraries is what gets our endorphins pumping, the discovery of a deep VI discount might be what does it for him. Some people are that way. I live in Milwaukee -- a city renown for rummage sales. Sales fever is a very real thing.

Sometimes nefarious posting practices are as obvious as getting hit in the face with a brick. Does anyone remember this post-burying episode from a couple years ago? (I obscured the poster's name because he/she may still be a VI-Control member.)


I've seen Fleer engage in all kinds of topics and discussions in this forum over the years, so I'm not about to go after him with a pitchfork. I'm just going to continue to use my judgement as I always have and enjoy whatever value I find in his contributions to VI-Control.
 

TigerTheFrog

Amphibiousician
Fleer stated his position very clearly here. What it's come down to is whether or not we're willing to take him at his word.

Fleer's posting across forums comes across as shilly because musicians typically get excited over sales of products of interest, not whatever vendors happen to be offering. I have bought from both APD and VSTBuzz before, and I've enjoyed the deep discounts, but like most musicians, I'm only interested in the products they sell that I need or want, which is, at best, about 10% of the products they offer throughout the year.

That said, we may need to consider that Fleer is an authentic, GAS-fueled sales junkie. Whereas composing music with VI libraries is what gets our endorphins pumping, the discovery of a deep VI discount might be what does it for him. Some people are that way. I live in Milwaukee -- a city renown for rummage sales. Sales fever is a very real thing.

Sometimes nefarious posting practices are as obvious as getting hit in the face with a brick. Does anyone remember this post-burying episode from a couple years ago? (I obscured the poster's name because he/she may still be a VI-Control member.)


I've seen Fleer engage in all kinds of topics and discussions in this forum over the years, so I'm not about to go after him with a pitchfork. I'm just going to continue to use my judgement as I always have and enjoy whatever value I find in his contributions to VI-Control.
Okay, you got me.

I admit I paid R***** a lot of money to focus attention on my post "How to Transform Toilet Paper Into Music." I was able to do that because of the fortune I got for that placement from my client, Mr. Whipple.
 

Fleer

Feeding the Trolls
That said, we may need to consider that Fleer is an authentic, GAS-fueled sales junkie. Whereas composing music with VI libraries is what gets our endorphins pumping, the discovery of a deep VI discount might be what does it for him. Some people are that way. I live in Milwaukee -- a city renown for rummage sales. Sales fever is a very real thing.
Sad but true. I’m afraid I haven’t properly used 90% of my music software purchases. Even worse, these last 30 years I’ve bought over a dozen keyboards and guitars I never played yet. Most are still boxed and sealed. It’s GAS indeed.

Looking back at this thread, I think Geoff Grace is right. I’ve been feeding the trolls. Changing my handle yet again.
 

ionian

Member
Is this the kind of stuff that goes on here? Hell, people here get free products and post crazy review videos saying it's the greatest thing ever regardless of quality because they got it free. Libraries are released with all kinds of sloppiness or phase issues and half of you members, including reviewers, cream yourselves pushing them so either half of you are shills or your ears are worth sh!t. And you're gonna waste time doing a witch hunt on a single person while ignoring all the other bullsh!t that goes on here?

Hell, thereus, if you have this much free time get a puppy. Or work at getting good enough at music that you can get some work so you don't have enough free time for useless crap like this.

Hell, even the solutions are a mess - telling people to refrain from posting about certain companies. Damn, I thought I'd never find a forum that's more of a sh!tshow than GS.
 

DivingInSpace

Active Member
Is this the kind of stuff that goes on here? Hell, people here get free products and post crazy review videos saying it's the greatest thing ever regardless of quality because they got it free. Libraries are released with all kinds of sloppiness or phase issues and half of you members, including reviewers, cream yourselves pushing them so either half of you are shills or your ears are worth sh!t. And you're gonna waste time doing a witch hunt on a single person while ignoring all the other bullsh!t that goes on here?

Hell, thereus, if you have this much free time get a puppy. Or work at getting good enough at music that you can get some work so you don't have enough free time for useless crap like this.

Hell, even the solutions are a mess - telling people to refrain from posting about certain companies. Damn, I thought I'd never find a forum that's more of a sh!tshow than GS.
Wow, relax buddy. This was a bit of a mess, i agree but take it easy. It is a rare one in my experience, and you just straight up being a dick like that isn't going to make any positive impact on it all.
 
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