Amazonian pan pipes - best multisampled and phrase library?

Discussion in 'SAMPLE Talk' started by Rob Elliott, May 17, 2019.

  1. Rob Elliott

    Rob Elliott Senior Member

    I have a project that just came up quick asking for this featured instrument. Any recommendations? Thanks in advance.
     
  2. Mark Schmieder

    Mark Schmieder Active Member

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    Pan Pipes can be a misleading term, but is semi-acceptable for those instruments. The problem is more at the other end of things, where you may not realize you're getting a TRUE pan pipe library, which is a completely different instrument family and primarily relates to countries of the Eastern Mediterranean region, usually chromatic, and curved.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_flute

    The more traditional term for the Andean Pan Flute is "Siku", but that as well often more specifically refers to the mid-high or alto (even soprano) voicing. Each voicing has a different name. This varies by region also.

    I have other links at home, as well as my notes on library choices, so will have to consult that once home from work, but I can unequivocally endorse ISW's Ventus Pan Flutes for the bass in the Andean family, known as a Toyo:

    https://impactsoundworks.com/product/ventus-ethnic-winds-panflutes/

    For the higher-pitched and more common members of that family, my recollection is that I still find Spitfire's to be tops by far, but I will have to verify that once home. These would be the Andy Findon Kitbag, which comes in two volumes:

    https://www.spitfireaudio.com/shop/ranges/producer-portfolio/andy-findon-kit-bag-2/

    I may be using Best Service Ethno World for the higher voicings, as it looks like neither Spitfire nor ISW (or even Tarilonte) cover those. I'll check once home.

    As I use these instruments a lot, I have been more thorough with them than almost any other sound source, but I do not bother to memorize much stuff and depend instead on very thorough annotation, which I share with the forum from time to time. In fact, I already did so not too long ago, so you may find the other thread, but I don't frankly remember if it was general, or specific just to Sikus/etc.

    I plan to order some "real" pipes from Bolivia soon. I started with the Ecuadorean variant (I forget its name), which is quite different as it is designed for dual-note playing. Rondodor is the name as I recall. Not as well known or as widely-used as the Bolivian pipes. These are NOT easy instruments to play! Luckily the Spitfire and ISW libraries cover a lot of the playing details.
     
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  3. rottoy

    rottoy Plebeian

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    I just recorded a set of Peruvian pan pipes for my latest (free) library.
    You can hear it in action below.

    Download link (Requires Kontakt 5.8.1): https://www.dropbox.com/s/jobc0mtzng9mi0l/Twovi Strings 1.0.zip?dl=0
     
  4. OP
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    Rob Elliott

    Rob Elliott Senior Member


    Thanks so much - I have their other products and VERY happy with them. I'll for sure pick this one up.
     
  5. OP
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    Rob Elliott

    Rob Elliott Senior Member

    Well - how cool is that. THANKS - will check that out right away!!!! Very kind to offer this to this community.
     
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  6. Mark Schmieder

    Mark Schmieder Active Member

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    Rob, just remember that the Spitfire and ISW may not get you the highest pitches you need. They label theirs as bass (Toyo) instruments, but they faked it out a bit -- perhaps also sampling the tenor (Sanka) voicing. Neither library really gets up into the alto (Malta) or soprano (Chuli/Ika) range (which you may not need anyway).

    I know you're in a bit of a hurry, but I can at least promise that I will access my notes once home tonight to give a more thorough presentation.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2019
  7. Mark Schmieder

    Mark Schmieder Active Member

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    Also, thanks to Rottoy for his generous donation of free sounds. I didn't comment on them yet because I can't listen at work, but also realize that may have come off as a snub.
     
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  8. Mark Schmieder

    Mark Schmieder Active Member

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  9. OP
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    Rob Elliott

    Rob Elliott Senior Member

    Yea Mark - the higher pitches will not be needed on this project - he wants it VERY subtle (lower pitches will aid in this). The FIRST hopeful thought I had was whether Tari did this instrument(s) but I don't think so either - but I will send him over a note to confirm.
     
  10. SoNowWhat?

    SoNowWhat? realised I can type here

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    There are pan pipes in Tari’s Forest Kingdom but may be too limited for your needs. If it’s a focused/highlighted instrument you may well consider the ventus or similar. Also you have to get the whole forest kingdom library and may be more than you want. I don’t have the ventus pans just the shakuhachi so far. Seems like @Mark Schmieder is the big daddy on this subject, just thought I’d clarify on the Tari option.
     
  11. OP
    OP
    Rob Elliott

    Rob Elliott Senior Member

    Yea picked up the Ventus one. Perfect for the project!!!!!
     
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  12. Mark Schmieder

    Mark Schmieder Active Member

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    Eduardo Tarilonte's Forest Kingdom has high, medium, low, and bass voices, but I just got home so haven't opened up Engine yet to compare their ranges or quality and articulation flexibility to other choices.

    I recently broke down the sound sources by voicing, and list the main alternate names, which mostly are a reflection of Spanish vs. Aymara vs. Quechua (and a few others as well). But I'm also listing non-Andean Pan Flutes below as well.


    Pan Flute (Chuli/Ch’ulli/Ika/High Siku 6”)
    1. UVI World Suite: Woodwind: Latin Panpipe (Falcon)
    2. Eduardo Tarilonte's Forest Kingdom: Instruments: Wind: Pan Pipes: Panpipes Full Set (Engine)

    Pan Flute (Malta/Ch’alla/Medium Siku 13.5”/Antara/Zampoña)
    1. UVI World Suite: Woodwind: Latin Panpipe (Falcon)
    2. Ethno World: Woodwind and Brass: Panflutes: Panflute (Kontakt) — curved model
    3. Eduardo Tarilonte's Forest Kingdom: Instruments: Wind: Pan Pipes: Panpipes Full Set (Engine)
    4. EW Ra: Americas: Wind: Pan Flute (Play)
    5. Garritan World Instruments: Winds: Latin America: Andean Panpipes (ARIA)
    6. Bolder Sounds Pan (Kontakt)

    Pan Flute (Romanian Nai/Greek Syrinx)
    1. ISW Ventus Ethnic Winds: Pan Flutes: Nai (Pan Flute) (Kontakt)
    2. Xsample Library: Woodwinds: Panflute (Kontakt)
    3. Ethno World: Woodwind and Brass: Panflutes: Panflute Canira (Kontakt) — Canira Music brand

    Pan Flute (Rondador/Ecuador/Chorded Cane)

    Pan Flute (Sanka/Zanka/Low Siku 23”)
    1. Spitfire Andy Findon Kitbag: Panpipe Low (Kontakt)
    2. Ethno World: Woodwind and Brass: Panflutes: Panflute (Kontakt) — curved model
    3. Eduardo Tarilonte's Forest Kingdom: Instruments: Wind: Pan Pipes: Panpipes Full Set (Engine)

    Pan Flute (Toyo/T’uyu/Jach’a/Bass Siku 34-48”/Aztec Wind)
    1. ISW Ventus Ethnic Winds: Pan Flutes: Toyo (Bass Pan Flute) (Kontakt)
    2. Q-Up Arts Voices of the Aztecs: The River: Toyo (Kontakt)

    If there's no numbered list below a bolded entry, it means I do not currently own a library that covers that voicing, but have a placeholder so that I don't forget. In the case of the Rondador, I bought a real one. :)

    Note that the Latin Panpipe in UVI World Suite is derived from Precisionsound's Bolivian Panpipe library for Kontakt.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2019
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  13. Jaap

    Jaap Yes, that's an alto flute

    UVI World Suite also has some and if I recall correctly you have that suite I thought.
    With some tweaking in Falcon it could be something maybe.
     
  14. Mark Schmieder

    Mark Schmieder Active Member

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    I am primarily using Spitfire Andy Findon Kitbag Volume 2 for what it calls Panpipe Low, which is actually the low Sanka voicing of the Siku family. This one has a slightly extended range.

    ISW Ventus Winds: Pan Flutes, gets used for the Toyo, which is a deep bass member of the family. It too has an extended range, which helps quite a bit.

    Although the Malta Siku is the most common voicing, the "Latin Panpipe" in UVI World Suite (which was originally a Precisionsound library), isn't quite of the same quality as the other two top choices, but it covers a range that they don't, and does at least react to CC's. Nevertheless, for now it is listed as my top choice for that voicing. It too has an extended range.

    So, a bit more on these "extended range" notes: I do not know what it means, but can only guess. They do NOT, for the most part, sound like they were sample-stretched. It is possible that two voicings were sampled and merged -- but it might be difficult to get a sound that blends well in the overlap notes.

    More likely, they used instruments that have an extended range. These are becoming more common, even for the more traditional players. Instruments are constantly evolving, all around the world, and necessity is the mother of invention.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2019
  15. Mark Schmieder

    Mark Schmieder Active Member

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    This is what the curved diatonic Romanian panflute looks like:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nai_(pan_flute)

    Here are the two better-informed articles on panflutes that I alluded to earlier:

    http://www.nativefluteswalking.com/panpipes-andean-american.shtml

    https://www.alcasami.com/blog/siku/

    Note that both curved and diatonic or chromatic designs have been making their way into the Andes for a while now. At the same time, the Eastern Mediterranean designs are shifting into boutique woods like Rosewood and away from Bamboo and other light woods.

    Thus, the terminology is still somewhat inexact and in flux. I have revised my own usage many times by now. I think the key is to distinguish the voicings, like an SATB choir, and to decide on pentatonic vs. diatonic vs. chromatic, straight vs. curved, single note vs. two-note or chords, single-row vs. multi-row, and of course material (i.e. which wood).

    As an example, "Antara" seems to be shifting towards being designated for chromatic curved models, even though originally it was just the Quechua word for "Siku" (Aymara language), which in Spanish is "Zampoña". The "Antara" term had for some time been reserved for the most super-traditional models that were pentatonic, single-row, and fairly high-pitched.

    I have not yet dealt with the store below (I have been using Bolivian Stuff in La Paz), but it's a good information resource, and seems to work with the best luthiers, so I may consider them in the future. They also seem to be driving the modern terminology for this family of instruments.

    https://www.thepanflutestore.com/zamponasikuantara

    In the end, it is what sounds the most musical for a specific piece of music, and what inspires you, that matters the most.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2019
  16. chillbot

    chillbot Sock Muppet

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    Geez it appears there are a ton of people who know much more than me about pan flutes so I would listen to them and not me. I've had good results recording my own, but in samples my go to is Aria Sounds:

    http://ariasounds.com/ethnic_flutes_vst_bundle.html

    They have a patch which lets you play both staccato and longs without a keyswitch because there's such a nice attack. Once I found this library I never looked back...
     
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  17. Mark Schmieder

    Mark Schmieder Active Member

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    It took a few dozen iterations to finalize the list a few posts above this one, but I am finally confident it is correct and complete, with no unnecessary redundancies in terminology or categorization.

    The revised list accounts for the extended ranges of some of those products, and attempts to normalize which voicings they cover, but bear in mind that it's just one patch, and the Tarilonte one in particular sounds sample-stretched to my ears.

    My conclusion after all of this research, on the heels of quite a few earlier iterations over the past year or two, is that the voicing (note range) is the critical identifier, as all of the other variables are in flux due to cross-pollination of ideas across cultures as well as the demands of playing songs from outside the original traditional genres. Only the Romanian/Greek version stands out from the Andean one.
     
  18. OP
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    Rob Elliott

    Rob Elliott Senior Member

    Thanks everyone for your input. Mark - I feel I have received and education. :)
     
  19. SoNowWhat?

    SoNowWhat? realised I can type here

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    That’s one of the things I love about this place. I can’t help but learn something pretty much every time I open the site. Thank you @Mark Schmieder.
     
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  20. Mark Schmieder

    Mark Schmieder Active Member

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    You're welcome, but just so you know, this thread pushed me into two or three additional iterations on what had already been a long personal journey of discovery, with lots of twists and turns along the way.

    Ethnomusicology has been my passion since age 10 (when I was first introduced to Gamelan), but it is a difficult subject to master (and no one truly has), as it is a moving target, and also because many of the cultures had no tradition of written history. In many cases, the music itself was the oral history.

    Archaeologists are constantly turning up "forgotten" instruments that serve as missing links in the puzzle of how current known instruments came to be. And of course -- especially in mountainous areas -- transport and communications were quite different and slower up until modern times, so there was an incredible amount of local variation as things evolved in isolation.

    I think most people are not purists though, and appreciate what is truly unique about each instrument, but perhaps want to bring it into modern times to conform to the western scale, SATB voicings, and other such factors. Still others are aesthetically oriented only, and start making instruments that sound nothing like the basic shape would suggest, because they want something beautiful to look at.

    Personally, I fall in the middle, as you probably have already figured out.

    The biggest frustration for me is simply the ignorance of many sample developers -- though this is not much of a problem in recent years. Especially with older libraries, things weren't identified properly (even with widely dispersed "given knowledge" at the time), and treated as toys (often, a tourist-grade instrument would be sampled and/or not played by a professional).

    So the more academic side of what I write in these parts, is really designed more to help people know what it is they're getting, given that documentation is often scant, missing, or incorrect.

    From my point of view though, playability matters the most, and we all already know that this is a "given" any time Eduardo Tarilonte gives special attention to an instrument (especially his marvelous middle eastern collections, but unfortunately not the panpipes in Forest Kingdom). Similarly with Impact Soundworks, and Spitfire's world instrument libraries.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2019
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